GM is pulling back on EVs

[AZlb5.0]

Hello; Thing may be how many passes can a battery pack make before needing a charge?

True but I’m thinking that as soon as the pass is done that they’ll start the recharge progress. Now what that will do is ultimately make the battery go bad early, but I doubt that anyone lining up would want to be at anything less then 100% charge. I’m sure they’ll go through batteries like we go through toilet paper. I mean ultimately drag racing will come to a demise. That’s just the way the sport is headed regardless if it’s for ICE or electric vehicles.

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[Burkey]

Hello; Had to go back many pages to get to where this micro debate started about windmill emissions. Decided to quote much of the article this time as this information appears to have been ignored.
How Much CO2 Gets Emitted to Build a Wind Turbine? – STOP THESE THINGS

Quote- “So what’s the carbon foot print of a wind turbine with 45 tons of rebar & 481m3 of concrete?
Andy’s Rant
4 August 2014

Its carbon footprint is massive – try 241.85 tons of CO2.

Here’s the breakdown of the CO2 numbers.

To create a 1,000 Kg of pig iron, you start with 1,800 Kg of iron ore, 900 Kg of coking coal 450 Kg of limestone. The blast furnace consumes 4,500 Kg of air. The temperature at the core of the blast furnace reaches nearly 1,600 degrees C (about 3,000 degrees F).

The pig iron is then transferred to the basic oxygen furnace to make steel.

1,350 Kg of CO2 is emitted per 1,000 Kg pig iron produced.

A further 1,460 Kg CO2 is emitted per 1,000 Kg of Steel produced so all up 2,810 Kg CO2 is emitted.

45 tons of rebar (steel) are required so that equals 126.45 tons of CO2 are emitted.

To create a 1,000 Kg of Portland cement, calcium carbonate (60%), silicon (20%), aluminium (10%), iron (10%) and very small amounts of other ingredients are heated in a large kiln to over 1,500 degrees C to convert the raw materials into clinker. The clinker is then interground with other ingredients to produce the final cement product. When cement is mixed with water, sand and gravel forms the rock-like mass know as concrete.

An average of 927 Kg of CO2 is emitted per 1,000 Kg of Portland cement. On average, concrete has 10% cement, with the balance being gravel (41%), sand (25%), water (18%) and air (6%). One cubic metre of concrete weighs approx. 2,400 Kg so approx. 240 Kg of CO2 is emitted for every cubic metre.

481m3 of concrete are required so that equals 115.4 tons of CO2 are emitted.”

Quote – “Now I have not included the emissions of the mining of the raw materials or the transportation of the fabricated materials to the turbine site so the emission calculation above would be on the low end at best.

Each and every wind turbine has a magnet made of a metal called neodymium. There are 2,500 Kg of it in each of the behemoths that have just gone up around Australia.

The mining and refining of neodymium is so dirty and toxic – involving repeated boiling in acid, with radioactive thorium as a waste product – that only one country does it – China. (See our posts here and here).

All this for an intermittent highly unreliable energy source.

And I haven’t even considered the manufacture of the thousands of pylons and tens of thousands of kilometres of transmission wire needed to get the power to the grid. And what about the land space needed to house thousands of these bird chomping death machines?

You see, renewables like wind turbines will incur far more carbon dioxide emissions in their manufacture and installation than what their operational life will ever save.”

And you think this somehow makes your case?
That’s actually cute. You scoured the web to find a site that is literally committed to the act of converting people to their way of thinking and weren’t at all suspicious of the claims they’re making? Seriously?

Given your reluctance to do proper research, I’m yet again forced to do your homework for you…..

Let’s work out just how much CO2 a wind turbine “saves” every year.

“According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, the average U.S. home uses 893 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity per month. Per the U.S. Wind Turbine Database, the mean capacity of wind turbines that achieved commercial operations in 2020 is 2.75 megawatts (MW). At a 42% capacity factor (i.e., the average among recently built wind turbines in the United States, per the 2021 edition of the U.S. Department of Energy’s Land-Based Wind Market Report), that average turbine would generate over 843,000 kWh per month—enough for more than 940 average U.S. homes. To put it another way, the average wind turbine that came online in 2020 generates enough electricity in just 46 minutes to power an average U.S. home for one month.”

Simple math says that 843,000 per month makes a little over 10 million kw/h per year.

Now let’s work out how much CO2 would be released from fossil fuels to achieve the same generation figure.

Coal = 1kg per kw/h
Natural gas is slightly better than half of that.

So, to get 10 million kw/h from coal, you need to release about 10 million kgs of CO2, call it 10,000 metric tonnes, 4,500 for natural gas.

241.85 (assuming the math is even correct) vs 4,500 or 10,000.

A person could almost believe that the studies I cited had already allowed for ALL of the emissions related to the introduction of wind turbines, as evidenced by the timelines they offered, along with the fact that they even told you that they’d done exactly that.

Anyways, about that “glut” of emissions….

Sources:

https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/how-many-homes-can-average-wind-turbine-power

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11

 

[Burkey]

True but I’m thinking that as soon as the pass is done that they’ll start the recharge progress. Now what that will do is ultimately make the battery go bad early, but I doubt that anyone lining up would want to be at anything less then 100% charge. I’m sure they’ll go through batteries like we go through toilet paper. I mean ultimately drag racing will come to a demise. That’s just the way the sport is headed regardless if it’s for ICE or electric vehicles.

Given that motor racing has improved ICE passenger cars, wouldn’t it be fair to expect the same to be true of EV’s?
Necessity is the mother of invention right?

 

[AZlb5.0]

Given that motor racing has improved ICE passenger cars, wouldn’t it be fair to expect the same to be true of EV’s?
Necessity is the mother of invention right?

True very true

 

[RagmopInKona]

True but I’m thinking that as soon as the pass is done that they’ll start the recharge progress. Now what that will do is ultimately make the battery go bad early, but I doubt that anyone lining up would want to be at anything less then 100% charge. I’m sure they’ll go through batteries like we go through toilet paper. I mean ultimately drag racing will come to a demise. That’s just the way the sport is headed regardless if it’s for ICE or electric vehicles.

DRAG racing is die'n because they focus on the past. WAY TOO MUCH.
They also don't help themselves treating the non -pro racers like 2nd class citizens .
Then the pro-classes cost is beyond stupid . Yes let me spend 100k to race an event for a 40k purse .
Ask a super stock racer what he'she spends a season and your head will spin.

 

[sk47]

And you think this somehow makes your case?
That’s actually cute. You scoured the web to find a site that is literally committed to the act of converting people to their way of thinking and weren’t at all suspicious of the claims they’re making? Seriously?

Given your reluctance to do proper research, I’m yet again forced to do your homework for you…..

Let’s work out just how much CO2 a wind turbine “saves” every year.

“According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, the average U.S. home uses 893 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity per month. Per the U.S. Wind Turbine Database, the mean capacity of wind turbines that achieved commercial operations in 2020 is 2.75 megawatts (MW). At a 42% capacity factor (i.e., the average among recently built wind turbines in the United States, per the 2021 edition of the U.S. Department of Energy’s Land-Based Wind Market Report), that average turbine would generate over 843,000 kWh per month—enough for more than 940 average U.S. homes. To put it another way, the average wind turbine that came online in 2020 generates enough electricity in just 46 minutes to power an average U.S. home for one month.”

Simple math says that 843,000 per month makes a little over 10 million kw/h per year.

Now let’s work out how much CO2 would be released from fossil fuels to achieve the same generation figure.

Coal = 1kg per kw/h
Natural gas is slightly better than half of that.

So, to get 10 million kw/h from coal, you need to release about 10 million kgs of CO2, call it 10,000 metric tonnes, 4,500 for natural gas.

241.85 (assuming the math is even correct) vs 4,500 or 10,000.

A person could almost believe that the studies I cited had already allowed for ALL of the emissions related to the introduction of wind turbines, as evidenced by the timelines they offered, along with the fact that they even told you that they’d done exactly that.

Anyways, about that “glut” of emissions….

Sources:

https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/how-many-homes-can-average-wind-turbine-power

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11

Hello; I think this is the third time you deflect and have tried to pass off unrelated information as the answer to the question. First the question is NOT about a comparison between fossil fuel power generation and wind turbine generation.

The situation in question is about what might be called the carbon footprint (CARBON DEBT maybe) of a single wind turbine resulting from its manufacture and physical instillation. Including making the steel, aluminum, copper wires, special magnets, fiberglass & resin and all such parts. Then transporting said materials, then digging out for the foundation, then erecting the wind turbine and connecting it to a grid. All that results in emissions before the finished turbine spins a blade in use.

Part of that footprint is due to where so much of these parts are made. That being China where much of the electric power comes from coal burning.

Same thing happens for a new car of any sort of type, ICE or EV. Before the vehicle rolls its first road mile in use a lot of carbon and other polluting events have happened to get it made.

I and others get the rationalization which is at some point of lifetime use the wind turbine is supposed to start generating electricity that is supposed to beat the overall average of other power generating operation in terms of grams of Co2 per kilowatt /hour. Supposedly all except nuclear which is the cleanest in terms of Co2 pollution. I did find a source who questions this contention and gives the numbers. That source you gave the standard Covid type dismissal to.
Does not change the fact a lot of carbon emissions and other polluting events happened during the making and installing of the wind turbine unit.

Same applies to a hydro dam which can take many years to build. Huge amounts of cement mix plus rebar and other materials worked with ICE machinery before the water column spins the internal turbines for the first time.

Maybe CARBON DEBT would be the better term to describe what i am writing about. I will repeat myself again. Part of the issue is the urgency for building these wind turbine farms currently. There is a large carbon debt for these farms with hundreds of these turbines.

I get the why behind the hurry. The political and social influence exists right now to get these agenda items into play soonest. Doing such a massive change over time will allow for the possibility of both political and social support to go away.
Plan seems to be to get the programs so far along they will be harder to slow down or stop. Seems there is little regard for the expected and unexpected consequences that will come along from the big hurry up. The example in Texas a few winters ago is an example of an unexpected consequence. A lesson was learned about freezeproofing the wind turbines and I also believe the natural gas valves.

Several post ago I and some you often rail against cheered a project as a win-win. That was the story of a school building needing the outer wall panels replaced. The school decided to adapt that needed repair to a "green" improvement by making some of the outside panels be solar. I and others are not against solar, wind and EV's in general. My resistance is more about the big hurry which I think harbors serious risks and the heavy-handed mandate & force tactics being used.

 

[K4fxd]

If the planet warms 2 degrees C in the next 100 years that is not a crisis.

If the green's would allow a 100 year time line for this green energy crap there would be a lot less push back. A lot less hit to our economies and a lot less hit to our lifestyles.

Bottom line this is not about saving the earth as it is about control over the peasants. Peasants being anyone who is not an elite political family.

 

[sk47]

If the planet warms 2 degrees C in the next 100 years that is not a crisis.

If the green's would allow a 100 year time line for this green energy crap there would be a lot less push back. A lot less hit to our economies and a lot less hit to our lifestyles.

Bottom line this is not about saving the earth as it is about control over the peasants. Peasants being anyone who is not an elite political family.

Hello; A sad aspect of this is among the masses are actual "true believers" who will be treated same as all the rest of the peasants even though they have bought heavily into the agenda.
Those in positions of power are still flying private and buying beachfront property.

 

[sk47]

Hello; Afraid I quoted a lot of this article. Still plenty left to see. I have made bold some passages.

Net-zero burns down the village to save it (msn.com)

“The surge in net-zero emissions shareholder proposals follows new Securities and Exchange Commission guidance allowing shareholders to essentially micromanage companies to achieve social policies. Environmentalists feel increasing urgency to implement the Paris Agreement because the window to achieve its 1.5- degree target is rapidly closing — a new report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says the world is on track to break through the 1.5-degree threshold by the early 2030s. Activists are turning to market power in a last-ditch effort to force through dramatic emissions cuts. A sympathetic SEC has now cleared the way for them.”

“These net-zero proposals are motivated by environmental concerns, not financial ones. They’re usually disconnected from companies’ missions and could require them to sacrifice their customers’ interests in pursuit of a political goal. They ask for radical changes in short time frames without regard to financial discipline. “

“Activists often appeal to the claim that climate risk is investment risk. But the expected cost of climate change is likely lower than net-zero advocates claim, and the cost of slashing fossil fuel use is most likely higher than they acknowledge. Scientists now agree the world is on track to avoid catastrophic warming. A few years ago, scientists warned of global warming of 4 or 5 degrees Celsius, an alarming prediction because the expected damage of climate change rises exponentially along with warming. But forecasts have since become more optimistic: today, theUN and independent climate trackers agree the world is on track for only 2 to 3 degrees of warming above preindustrial levels.”

“Expert consensus on the low cost of climate change is startling, given apocalyptic statements from media and politicians. One recent article examined 11 studies on the effect of 2.5 degrees Celsius of warming and concluded that “a century of climate change is about as bad as losing a year of economic growth.”Forsaking fossil fuels in a quixotic effort to salvage the Paris Agreement’s 1.5-degree target would cost far more.”

“The fundamental flaw with the Paris Agreement is that it focuses only on the costs of climate change; it doesn’t weigh them against the cost of cutting emissions. As Yale climate economist William Nordhaus said in his 2018 Nobel Prize acceptance, “However attractive a temperature target may be as an aspirational goal, the target approach is questionable because it ignores the costs of attaining the goals. If, for example, attaining the 1.5°C goal would require deep reductions in living standards in poor nations, then the policy would be the equivalent of burning down the village to save it.””

“One might wonder where the Paris Agreement’s 1.5-degree target comes from. The answer is that a coalition of small island nations concerned by rising sea levels successfully negotiated for it. Net-zero shareholder proposals meant to implement the Paris Agreement using the private sector are motivated by the belief that the broader world should halt all fossil fuel use as soon as possible to mitigate the effects of rising sea levels on these islands.”

“This is essentially a political compromise based on a contestable moral view, which potentially risks people around the world being harmed if the world immediately abandoned fossil fuels, and those harms would fall hardest on the poorest nations most in need of cheap energy.”

 

[sk47]

Hello; Seems I am not the only one skeptical of the hurry up pace of the “green” agenda.

Heat pumps epitomise the economic folly of net zero (msn.com)

“Amid the cacophony of claims about Net Zero there is little concrete analysis of its wider impact in macroeconomic terms. For all the magical thinking about green jobs and technologies, the true benefits appear trivial when compared with the massive scale of expenditures required – and even more so when we account for the huge destruction of our existing capital stock, from cars to industrial machinery.”

“Think of a three-bedroom house currently heated by gas. My work suggests that installing an air source heat pump, upgrading radiators and improving insulation could cost £15,000 or more. Even after spending that money, many will find the level of comfort inadequate.”

Hello; I know this from experience. I moved into a house with a heat pump 13 years ago. I do not freeze but am not comfortable in the winter.

“But this is only the tip of the iceberg. That heat pump will require green electricity if it’s to help meet net zero.” ……..”Even if energy costs revert to “normal” pre-2021 levels, my calculations suggest that electricity prices could well double.”

“And housing is only the start of our Net Zero capital losses. Schools, hospitals, offices, shops and factories will have to be extensively refurbished or replaced to accommodate electric heating, and will then incur higher operating costs. A significant fraction of buildings and other assets could be abandoned as no longer economic. That could have the knock on effect of driving up both residential and commercial rents paid by housing tenants and businesses.”

Hello; To be part of net zero can mean some houses and buildings are not going to be practical to modify to be heated/cooled with green energy.

“These costs result from needless haste. A practical date for Net Zero, 2080, would be consistent with the natural cycle of asset ageing and replacement, protecting the economic interests of our children and grandchildren. It would also seem to stand a better chance of delivering a sustainable low carbon future. The 2050 target is on a collision course with reality.”

Hello; Pushing the Green and EV agenda too quickly seems very risky.

 

[AZlb5.0]

If the planet warms 2 degrees C in the next 100 years that is not a crisis.

If the green's would allow a 100 year time line for this green energy crap there would be a lot less push back. A lot less hit to our economies and a lot less hit to our lifestyles.

Bottom line this is not about saving the earth as it is about control over the peasants. Peasants being anyone who is not an elite political family.

When you have Uber rich people calling for “socialism” and for governments taking of land for green energy projects and some even saying during COVID that the folks who didn’t take the vax needed to be put in encampments. I don’t see how some folks can’t see through those comments as to how vile and inciting they are. I always say that I’d rather sit across the table and talk out differences then anything else. I’ve seen what anger hatred war and combat gets you and it has to this date solved absolutely nothing.

 

[AZlb5.0]

DRAG racing is die'n because they focus on the past. WAY TOO MUCH.
They also don't help themselves treating the non -pro racers like 2nd class citizens .
Then the pro-classes cost is beyond stupid . Yes let me spend 100k to race an event for a 40k purse .
Ask a super stock racer what he'she spends a season and your head will spin.

I agree with everything you’re saying but in the world we are in today even with out all of your valid points drag racing would be slowly but surely killed. That’s what’s happening slowly but surely.

 

[K4fxd]

I always say that I’d rather sit across the table and talk out differences then anything else. I’ve seen what anger hatred war and combat gets you and it has to this date solved absolutely nothing.

I've seen the same. I have my own ideas on why it solves nothing. (evacuation from Afghanistan?)

The talking across the table is not going to happen as long as some think it is OK to run and hide from opinions they don't like. I have a niece who is a leftist liberal. Last Christmas, while at a family gathering, I brought up some points that she didn't agree with and she said, "I'm going to get violent if you don't shut up"

I see a civil war unless things change at the kindergarten level.

 

[AZlb5.0]

I see a civil war unless things change at the kindergarten level.

I would hope it never gets that far. I would beg for Gods mercy before anything like that happens. My middle daughter, who’s studying to be a psychiatrist, is all about socialism and pretty much probably mirrors your niece. She hasn’t talked to me since she turned 18 and started college. A civil war would ultimately destroy this nation and make this continent vulnerable to an invasion from another super power. It wouldn’t work out like some think it would. Combat is ugly brother, I would never wish the things I’ve seen or experienced on anyone.

 

[K4fxd]

I would hope it never gets that far.

You and me both. I served, my Son served.

Al Gore said his election was stolen, media said maybe. Hillary said her election was stolen, media said, maybe. Trump said his election was stolen, the media says no way and they are trying to put him in jail.

Only China and Russia want a civil war in the USA.

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