GM is pulling back on EVs

[Burkey]

Hello; The question was about wind turbines not solar panels.

I was being generous. Wind turbines make faster returns than solar panels.

Why don’t you use just Google to get the answers you need? Have the algorithms made it impossible for you to find decent (balanced) information?

Answer: 6-9 months for onshore turbines, slightly longer for offshore.
Source:
https://www.newscientist.com/lastwo...the-carbon-payback-period-for-a-wind-turbine/

Answer: 6-12 months
Source:
https://www.semprius.com/how-long-does-it-take-a-wind-turbine-to-pay-for-itself/

Answer: 7 months (maybe)
Source:
https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2021/06/whats-the-carbon-footprint-of-a-wind-turbine/

Answer: 5-8 months
Source:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140616093317.htm

See a pattern emerging here?

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[AZlb5.0]

I can’t honestly say that I’m a fan of MANY of the things that China has done. But, on this ONE issue, they’re leaps and bounds ahead of MANY countries, yours and mine included.

In terms of climate, I’d be more worried about India, Australia and the US than I would be about China. Of course, to some, that makes me some kind of sympathiser because in their mind there‘s only two options, for or against.

I think we can all understand the whys and how comes of our positions. Chinas human rights record completely take them out of any praise from me but that’s just my own personal bias. Not saying the US is any better. Instead of our government killing our own they manufacture wars to make money and kill others. That’s just a fact.

 

[sk47]

I was being generous. Wind turbines make faster returns than solar panels.

Why don’t you use just Google to get the answers you need? Have the algorithms made it impossible for you to find decent (balanced) information?

Answer: 6-9 months for onshore turbines, slightly longer for offshore.
Source:
https://www.newscientist.com/lastwo...the-carbon-payback-period-for-a-wind-turbine/

Answer: 6-12 months
Source:
https://www.semprius.com/how-long-does-it-take-a-wind-turbine-to-pay-for-itself/

Answer: 7 months (maybe)
Source:
https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2021/06/whats-the-carbon-footprint-of-a-wind-turbine/

Answer: 5-8 months
Source:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140616093317.htm

See a pattern emerging here?

Hello; Here is what I wrote in the post in question before.

"A few posts back I went into some detail about the upfront environment and climate cost of each wind turbine. That the huge amounts of concrete, steel, epoxy, fiberglass, transport, manufacture and instillation all add up to a big spurt of Co2 and other pollution within just weeks. That it will take large farms of these wind turbines with individual farms numbering in the untold numbers of thousands overall. So, a big glut of Co2 released to build these farms soonest."
"How is this glut of real-time and current emission of Co2 from building farms justified (rationalized) by the champions? Much like the per-capita argument for excusing China's coal emissions, it is couched in per kilowatt/hour output over twenty years time. But just as China's massive emissions are happening right now, so are the massive emissions from the making and installing of each wind turbine happening right now. Yet we who are driving so very much cleaner ICE vehicles or power companies who use the very much cleaner natural gas somehow are become the real-time current enemy of the earth's climate."

Hello; I found some of the same links you posted myself when looking information up. I get the part of someday off in the future all this is supposed to pay off. Be in a hurry to build lots of new wind turbines now. Be in a hurry to make BEV's mandatory soonest. Be willing to spend money we do not have, so more debt and inflation, so the electric grid can have extra capacity needed to service all the EV's also in a hurry.
Others have pointed out that a more sane way to transition is to go at it more gradually. Let the EV's, wind turbines and solar be adopted at a rate we can afford. To not trash a working system by going too fast. Then as I do some searching I find that these wind turbine farms make massive emissions dumps into the atmosphere in real current time. Dumps that may balance out over time but are real, current and massive increases of the greenhouse gas so vilified of late.
Keep dancing around the actual situation if you wish. I see thru it and expect many others do as well. You for some reason have picked the cause to fight for on this forum in writing. However, we have not missed that you have are plan to make your families next vehicle an ICE. While i find much of your arguments without merit, I do see you are not deluded enough to buy an EV. The EV's are not yet ready for prime time, I get it.

 

[Burkey]

I think we can all understand the whys and how comes of our positions. Chinas human rights record completely take them out of any praise from me but that’s just my own personal bias. Not saying the US is any better. Instead of our government killing our own they manufacture wars to make money and kill others. That’s just a fact.

I agree that their human rights record is ATROCIOUS (putting it nicely). Again, no contest. But, I don’t think we can then go on to summarily say that therefore China = Evil in every metric.

Despite their human rights record, I’m “impressed“ (can‘t think of a more accurate word) by how they’ve assimilated the ideas of capitalism and socialism. Would I want it for my country? Nope. Not at all,…..but…….if I was living in China and my options were what they’re doing now vs straight up socialism/communism, I know which one I’d pick.

Does that constitute praise? I don’t think so. I’d rather that they have a system much closer to what we all live under, with a government that doesn’t routinely execute dissidents. We can all dream of a better future, and hope for better things for our fellow man, without resorting to simplistic them/us tribalism can’t we?

 

[Burkey]

Hello; Here is what I wrote in the post in question before.

"A few posts back I went into some detail about the upfront environment and climate cost of each wind turbine. That the huge amounts of concrete, steel, epoxy, fiberglass, transport, manufacture and instillation all add up to a big spurt of Co2 and other pollution within just weeks. That it will take large farms of these wind turbines with individual farms numbering in the untold numbers of thousands overall. So, a big glut of Co2 released to build these farms soonest."
"How is this glut of real-time and current emission of Co2 from building farms justified (rationalized) by the champions? Much like the per-capita argument for excusing China's coal emissions, it is couched in per kilowatt/hour output over twenty years time. But just as China's massive emissions are happening right now, so are the massive emissions from the making and installing of each wind turbine happening right now. Yet we who are driving so very much cleaner ICE vehicles or power companies who use the very much cleaner natural gas somehow are become the real-time current enemy of the earth's climate."

Hello; I found some of the same links you posted myself when looking information up. I get the part of someday off in the future all this is supposed to pay off. Be in a hurry to build lots of new wind turbines now. Be in a hurry to make BEV's mandatory soonest. Be willing to spend money we do not have, so more debt and inflation, so the electric grid can have extra capacity needed to service all the EV's also in a hurry.
Others have pointed out that a more sane way to transition is to go at it more gradually. Let the EV's, wind turbines and solar be adopted at a rate we can afford. To not trash a working system by going too fast. Then as I do some searching I find that these wind turbine farms make massive emissions dumps into the atmosphere in real current time. Dumps that may balance out over time but are real, current and massive increases of the greenhouse gas so vilified of late.
Keep dancing around the actual situation if you wish. I see thru it and expect many others do as well. You for some reason have picked the cause to fight for on this forum in writing. However, we have not missed that you have are plan to make your families next vehicle an ICE. While i find much of your arguments without merit, I do see you are not deluded enough to buy an EV. The EV's are not yet ready for prime time, I get it.

Before we continue, can you PLEASE acknowledge that there isn’t a large “glut” of CO2 being released as a result of these wind turbines?

Can you at least accept that you were wrong on that ONE point?

 

[tripleyellowmustang]

Interesting read, Ford EV drag racer.

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/04/13...-with-mustang-super-cobra-jet-1800-prototype/

 

[sk47]

Before we continue, can you PLEASE acknowledge that there isn’t a large “glut” of CO2 being released as a result of these wind turbines?

Can you at least accept that you were wrong on that ONE point?

Hello; I am not wrong. The large wind turbines require a massive stable base made of concrete and steel rebar. There are ever bigger wind turbines being dreamed of and built, requiring even larger bases. Many tons of concrete and steel in each base. Then there is all the heavy machinery and trucks needed to dig the holes, haul the cement mix & steel, forms and all to the job site. Each using fossil fuels. Then cranes to erect the parts of the turbine tower and blades. Plus, assorted other on-site equipment.
Making cement and steel are among the processes requiring high energy inputs long before the materials get to a job site. I get there are off into the future hopes for "greener " cement and "greener" steel. Not yet practical and thus another reason to slow down the rush. An irony could be a huge number of wind turbines will be built now using current steel & cement tech with all the associated current emissions. Then a bit later on the greener steel and concrete comes into use, but the glut of emission will already be in the air. Get it?

Then there is the actual manufacture of the wind turbine parts. Lots of the parts are fiberglass encased in resin. Here is the China aspect of that and how it also adds extra Co2 to the air. China is building and putting into use a brand-new coal fired power plant every eight to ten days or so. Those plants are providing the electric energy so the wind turbine parts can be made.
Note- I get the rationalization that China is also setting up wind farms and solar arrays at the same time. However, such will not negate all the Co2 from all those smokestacks going full blast for some years now and will continue to do so into the future.

Let's us not forget transportation for all the materials from China and other places to the wind turbine placement sites. So, yes setting up brand new wind turbines has a big glut of Co2 emissions in real time now. That has been a point I stressed the last few days.

Here is an analogy. My pickup truck is 19 years old and gets slightly worse MPG's than an equivalent newer truck. I could trade and get a bump of maybe 4 or 5 MPG's. Thing is to make the steel and other parts of a new truck has an upfront carbon and other pollution footprint. Most folks trade trucks more often than 19 years. Maybe as often as every six or seven years. I have avoided the extra emissions of nearly three new trucks by running an already built older truck. Even tho my older truck only get around 18 MPG's when empty my guess is overall I am saving the environment some pollution by keeping it going. This was the lesson not understood many years ago when the "cash for clunkers" fiasco was forced onto us.

Last thing for now. I get why you and the other champions will not buy into my explanation. Right now, your agenda has the juice to get things done. Lots of folks have been frightened enough by the gloom and doom scare tactics. There currently is a lot of political and big corporation backing behind the agendas. People have not taken a good look behind the curtain yet to see the implications of the "green & EV" lifestyle to come. A "do without" lifestyle is my take. There is more to say but enough for now.

 

[sk47]

Interesting read, Ford EV drag racer.

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/04/13...-with-mustang-super-cobra-jet-1800-prototype/

Hello; The one big advantage an electric motor has is the instant full torque to be had. Getting all that instant torque to the drive wheels without spinning them is a problem. I notice at the end of the story they are going for the 0 to 60 records. Makes sense.

 

[Burkey]

Hello; I am not wrong. The large wind turbines require a massive stable base made of concrete and steel rebar. There are ever bigger wind turbines being dreamed of and built, requiring even larger bases. Many tons of concrete and steel in each base. Then there is all the heavy machinery and trucks needed to dig the holes, haul the cement mix & steel, forms and all to the job site. Each using fossil fuels. Then cranes to erect the parts of the turbine tower and blades. Plus, assorted other on-site equipment.
Making cement and steel are among the processes requiring high energy inputs long before the materials get to a job site. I get there are off into the future hopes for "greener " cement and "greener" steel. Not yet practical and thus another reason to slow down the rush. An irony could be a huge number of wind turbines will be built now using current steel & cement tech with all the associated current emissions. Then a bit later on the greener steel and concrete comes into use, but the glut of emission will already be in the air. Get it?

Then there is the actual manufacture of the wind turbine parts. Lots of the parts are fiberglass encased in resin. Here is the China aspect of that and how it also adds extra Co2 to the air. China is building and putting into use a brand-new coal fired power plant every eight to ten days or so. Those plants are providing the electric energy so the wind turbine parts can be made.
Note- I get the rationalization that China is also setting up wind farms and solar arrays at the same time. However, such will not negate all the Co2 from all those smokestacks going full blast for some years now and will continue to do so into the future.

Let's us not forget transportation for all the materials from China and other places to the wind turbine placement sites. So, yes setting up brand new wind turbines has a big glut of Co2 emissions in real time now. That has been a point I stressed the last few days.

Here is an analogy. My pickup truck is 19 years old and gets slightly worse MPG's than an equivalent newer truck. I could trade and get a bump of maybe 4 or 5 MPG's. Thing is to make the steel and other parts of a new truck has an upfront carbon and other pollution footprint. Most folks trade trucks more often than 19 years. Maybe as often as every six or seven years. I have avoided the extra emissions of nearly three new trucks by running an already built older truck. Even tho my older truck only get around 18 MPG's when empty my guess is overall I am saving the environment some pollution by keeping it going. This was the lesson not understood many years ago when the "cash for clunkers" fiasco was forced onto us.

Last thing for now. I get why you and the other champions will not buy into my explanation. Right now, your agenda has the juice to get things done. Lots of folks have been frightened enough by the gloom and doom scare tactics. There currently is a lot of political and big corporation backing behind the agendas. People have not taken a good look behind the curtain yet to see the implications of the "green & EV" lifestyle to come. A "do without" lifestyle is my take. There is more to say but enough for now.

Good lord.
The periods I quoted were for INSTALLED turbines, including all of the necessary infrastructure and transport requirements. You’d know this if you’d bothered to read the links I shared.
But no, as usual, you insist on sticking to your guns, even when you're demonstrably wrong.

Just accept that you were wrong and move on.
If you can’t take the loss, you’re going on the ignore list. It’s that simple.
The literature is there, I can’t force your to read it and understand it, but I’m not wasting my time on someone who won’t bother doing their homework either.

From the opening line of one of the links I shared:

In 2006, turbine manufacturer Vestas studied the carbon payback periodfor various turbines. This took into account extraction and manufacturing of raw materials, production of the turbines, their transport, erection, operation, maintenance, dismantling and disposal, and the same for their foundation and the transmission grid. The figure was between seven and nine months, depending on the type of turbine. Other analyses have come up with similar figures.

 

[tripleyellowmustang]

Hello; The one big advantage an electric motor has is the instant full torque to be had. Getting all that instant torque to the drive wheels without spinning them is a problem. I notice at the end of the story they are going for the 0 to 60 records. Makes sense.

Yeah, thats breakneck torque. Would be a wild ride.

 

[sk47]

Good lord.
The periods I quoted were for INSTALLED turbines, including all of the necessary infrastructure and transport requirements. You’d know this if you’d bothered to read the links I shared.
But no, as usual, you insist on sticking to your guns, even when you're demonstrably wrong.

Just accept that you were wrong and move on.
If you can’t take the loss, you’re going on the ignore list. It’s that simple.
The literature is there, I can’t force your to read it and understand it, but I’m not wasting my time on someone who won’t bother doing their homework either.

From the opening line of one of the links I shared:

In 2006, turbine manufacturer Vestas studied the carbon payback periodfor various turbines. This took into account extraction and manufacturing of raw materials, production of the turbines, their transport, erection, operation, maintenance, dismantling and disposal, and the same for their foundation and the transmission grid. The figure was between seven and nine months, depending on the type of turbine. Other analyses have come up with similar figures.

Hello; Had to go back many pages to get to where this micro debate started about windmill emissions. Decided to quote much of the article this time as this information appears to have been ignored.
How Much CO2 Gets Emitted to Build a Wind Turbine? – STOP THESE THINGS

Quote- “So what’s the carbon foot print of a wind turbine with 45 tons of rebar & 481m3 of concrete?
Andy’s Rant
4 August 2014

Its carbon footprint is massive – try 241.85 tons of CO2.

Here’s the breakdown of the CO2 numbers.

To create a 1,000 Kg of pig iron, you start with 1,800 Kg of iron ore, 900 Kg of coking coal 450 Kg of limestone. The blast furnace consumes 4,500 Kg of air. The temperature at the core of the blast furnace reaches nearly 1,600 degrees C (about 3,000 degrees F).

The pig iron is then transferred to the basic oxygen furnace to make steel.

1,350 Kg of CO2 is emitted per 1,000 Kg pig iron produced.

A further 1,460 Kg CO2 is emitted per 1,000 Kg of Steel produced so all up 2,810 Kg CO2 is emitted.

45 tons of rebar (steel) are required so that equals 126.45 tons of CO2 are emitted.

To create a 1,000 Kg of Portland cement, calcium carbonate (60%), silicon (20%), aluminium (10%), iron (10%) and very small amounts of other ingredients are heated in a large kiln to over 1,500 degrees C to convert the raw materials into clinker. The clinker is then interground with other ingredients to produce the final cement product. When cement is mixed with water, sand and gravel forms the rock-like mass know as concrete.

An average of 927 Kg of CO2 is emitted per 1,000 Kg of Portland cement. On average, concrete has 10% cement, with the balance being gravel (41%), sand (25%), water (18%) and air (6%). One cubic metre of concrete weighs approx. 2,400 Kg so approx. 240 Kg of CO2 is emitted for every cubic metre.

481m3 of concrete are required so that equals 115.4 tons of CO2 are emitted.”

Quote – “Now I have not included the emissions of the mining of the raw materials or the transportation of the fabricated materials to the turbine site so the emission calculation above would be on the low end at best.

Each and every wind turbine has a magnet made of a metal called neodymium. There are 2,500 Kg of it in each of the behemoths that have just gone up around Australia.

The mining and refining of neodymium is so dirty and toxic – involving repeated boiling in acid, with radioactive thorium as a waste product – that only one country does it – China. (See our posts here and here).

All this for an intermittent highly unreliable energy source.

And I haven’t even considered the manufacture of the thousands of pylons and tens of thousands of kilometres of transmission wire needed to get the power to the grid. And what about the land space needed to house thousands of these bird chomping death machines?

You see, renewables like wind turbines will incur far more carbon dioxide emissions in their manufacture and installation than what their operational life will ever save.”

 

[K4fxd]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/epa-emission-limits-boost-us-175940484.html

I don't see anything good coming from this.

 

[AZlb5.0]

Interesting read, Ford EV drag racer.

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/04/13...-with-mustang-super-cobra-jet-1800-prototype/

That’s a pretty stout showing. I wonder how much more expensive it’s going to get to race electric cars.

 

[sk47]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/epa-emission-limits-boost-us-175940484.html

I don't see anything good coming from this.

Hello; This showed up in a different thread. I think the idea is to lower the MPG equivalent of EV's and maybe hybrids from what they were calculated at for the last many years. Sort of an accounting trick more than something real.
Each company has to comply with CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) limits set by the government. They used to build some ICE high mileage compacts to help with this and apparently were using the high MPG equivalents of EV's to help with pickups, SUV's and Mustangs. ( I get that pickups are on a different scale than passenger cars or used to be.)

So, if the EV equivalent is lowered the companies will have to make a choice. Spend more on improving MPGs in ICE which will make them more expensive to buy. I guess the idea is twofold. One being if they can jack up the cost of an ICE closer to the already higher priced EV's, then more folks will go for the EV's. Second is companies may drop more ICE models.

Seems very similar to the policies since 20 20 which have acted to jack up the cost of fossil fuels and for the same reason. Punish those with ICE by making them pay more to keep an ICE. Another underhanded trick from those who are supposed to act in our best interest. OOPs., I forget. Us morons cannot be trusted to do what our self-proclaimed betters have decided is the "right" thing.
Oh yeah. We are supposed to believe that if we comply then some day in the future our lives will be so much better. You know a promise from those who are willing to trick and force us into compliance. I still figure it will turn out to be a "do without" future.

In that other thread a member cleverly figured a connection. After the Mustang EV came out the oil recommendation for the ICE GT was upped to 5W30 from the thin stuff.

 

[sk47]

That’s a pretty stout showing. I wonder how much more expensive it’s going to get to race electric cars.

Hello; Thing may be how many passes can a battery pack make before needing a charge?

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