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[Chameleon]

Will be setting up a dyno day w/ E85 Livernois tune with Airaid sometime in January.

Then we can compare it to the 93 Livernois tune w/ JLT I had dyno'd already.

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[snarkipus]

I understand the position of defending your company and I also understand the position of thinking your companies tuning, tuning device & software is superior. But to come off disrespectful and arrogant regarding your peers and competition in the industry is not a good thing.

Competition breeds better products and breakthroughs in technology. Sometimes recognizing the quality of your competition is a good thing, it makes you to reflect on your company and products and forces you to try to do better.

I'm certainly not trying to stir the pot, but I honestly think you've got a bad read on the Livernois team and that is unfortunate. If they came off as arrogant or disrespectful I'm 100% positive that's not what they intended. These guys are truly a class act and over-the-top customer service with an extra helping of integrity is kinda how they roll.

We are fortunate to have so many great options and such great vendor support in the community and Livernois (along with Lund, Steeda, Beefcake, Team Lethal) definitely belong on the dean's list in this regard.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

I'm certainly not trying to stir the pot, but I honestly think you've got a bad read on the Livernois team and that is unfortunate. If they came off as arrogant or disrespectful I'm 100% positive that's not what they intended. These guys are truly a class act and over-the-top customer service with an extra helping of integrity is kinda how they roll.

We are fortunate to have so many great options and such great vendor support in the community and Livernois (along with Lund, Steeda, Beefcake, Team Lethal) definitely belong on the dean's list in this regard.

Thank you.

Arrogance was definitely not the intent. Just the truth. Are there good tuners out there? Absolutely. But there really isn't anyone out there that does what we do. This is because we do it all from the hardware, to the software, to the tuning, product development, installed, engine building, cylinder design, etc.

Because of all of this we have a truly unique position in and understanding of the marketplace that assists us in seeing the bigger picture.

But we also know as price-points drop, so does someone's expectations.

Think about it this way. How many times do you hear someone in your car circle recommend a shop because of a price. Then really evaluate that situation. Did they have to go back repeatedly? Does the car actually run well? or did someone turn down their expectations because they paid a cheaper price?

Often, but not always, this is the case. After spending some time talking to them you find out the car idle hunts, stalls occasionally, surges, hesitates, has a check engine light, or something along those lines, and that it either is still a work in process, or it is labeled as being normal with the mod list.

These are the things we mean when we talk about these situations. And since the posted that brought up price had already had a couple of different tuners work on it, and even try to tune it himself we were talking the specifics about cost involved with doing it that specific way vs. paying someone to spend the time on it to make it perfect.

 

[Need4Speed15]

Let's get this thread back on topic! I want to see and hear more about Flex Tuning!

I agree and I appoligize for my part in somewhat derailing this thread. Has anyone out there received this tune and tested it either on a dyno or at the dragstrip yet? Interested in results! Really love the flex fuel tune idea!

 

[RustedAngel]

You wanted us to gift you a tuner so that your club could "try" our tune. That was not something that ownership is going to do. The thing to remember is that we are not a small fly by night sized company that is trying to make a name for themselves. We are already a very well established OEM vendor, race team, tuner, engineering firm and part developer. Many of you already have our parts on your cars and do not know it. A sponsorship styled deal that is proposed does need to be presented in a well thought out and professional manner.

Not to get too persnickety here, but *I* didn't ask you for anything like this, and I'm also an admin of the same Houston S550 group. At the time I asked, I didn't even know Phrentik had spoken with you about this.

I was willing to buy it, and told you as much, simply asking for a coupon code/small discount equal to what you guys had been apparently only offering Black Friday, and told you my intention of wanting to run it on the Dyno at our Dyno day, in fact tuning the car in between pulls to show everyone EXACTLY what the gains from stock were.

I wasn't asking for a borrowed tuner or tune, I was fully willing to buy it, with a slight discount given to other buyers.

This would have been free advertising to you. Not a sponsorship, not a giveaway, no loss. To be answered with there were no active coupon codes and to order as soon as possible to try and make sure I had it in time for our Dyno day on Sunday.

That was off putting. But, to then see an email relayed to another member of our group who was also interested in your tune, that you guys spoke to me on the "phone personally", which is a flat out, 100% lie...I'm not sure if there's anything to even say about that.

I think you guys don't realize how few and far between the customers that have your product are, making it difficult to base a purchase that will void a drivetrain warranty, when the only answers are vague, contradicting, and sometimes downright insulting/untrue.

We weren't trying to steal your product.

We were literally trying to have a more powerful, BETTER tune on our car to lay the smack down on the rest of our fellow members that day, and were hopeful that your company would provide that based on your claims here.

Instead, we were treated as though we had malice intentions.

Then 72 hours later your biggest competitor comes out with the same type of tune you claimed wasn't possible to duplicate.

Dunno, it may not matter to you all. But every single person in our 300 members just wrote the possibility of getting tuned by Livernois off their list as a result of these simple little exchanges.

I know if I were ownership, I'd be pissed at that.

Take it as you will.

 

[stoli]

It won't be figured out....I can all but promise you that. There are about 23k tables that you have in your ECM and the access to the tables that we alter in the tune are large, complex and require a ton of experience with that brand controller.

Arrogance was definitely not the intent. Just the truth.

With your supposed lack of arrogance I'm really surprised you partnered with Airaid and not JLT.

 

[jvm051]

^^^^^This,
Arrogance is the first thing that comes to mind when reading what has been posted. Kinda disappointed. I was seriously looking to order this but after some basic follow up questions were not responded to on the FB page and the implied "we are better just because" attitude, my money is going elsewhere. And now that flex fuel tunes from other respected in the industry tuners are out there. I think my mind is made up.
I want to be able to datalog, and make sure my tune is correct for my car, making sure I am not leaving anything on the table, and that it's safe.

 

[mustang_guy]

^^^^^This,
Arrogance is the first thing that comes to mind when reading what has been posted. Kinda disappointed. I was seriously looking to order this but after some basic follow up questions were not responded to on the FB page and the implied "we are better just because" attitude, my money is going elsewhere. And now that flex fuel tunes from other respected in the industry tuners are out there. I think my mind is made up.
I want to be able to datalog, and make sure my tune is correct for my car, making sure I am not leaving anything on the table, and that it's safe.

The arrogance seemed to be in the thermostat thread too. However adding tone to text that may or may not be there is an assumption on our part. Even if it is from the account user doesnt mean its a reflection of the actual owner of livernois or how others that work there may act. I can see how his posting style can be a turn off.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

^^^^^This,
Arrogance is the first thing that comes to mind when reading what has been posted. Kinda disappointed. I was seriously looking to order this but after some basic follow up questions were not responded to on the FB page and the implied "we are better just because" attitude, my money is going elsewhere. And now that flex fuel tunes from other respected in the industry tuners are out there. I think my mind is made up.
I want to be able to datalog, and make sure my tune is correct for my car, making sure I am not leaving anything on the table, and that it's safe.

Unfortunately our FB had not posted the message that we sent, but the message was typed up there:

date: Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 8:02 PM
subject: Re: Fwd: J*** M**** commented on a link Livernois Motorsports & Engineering shared.
mailed-by: livernoismotorsports.com

The messages between our FB staff and yourself definitely mostly answered with the final 2 not having the actual response posted for some reason, however they were posted now since they were still saved on the editor page. We definitely apologize for that, but it was not purposeful, nor avoidance. I am sure as a user of facebook you have seen that sometimes you hit post and nothing shows up, or you like something and later the like disappears. Technology is a great thing, but it has it's faults too.

Now, as far as anything close to "we are better just because" that has never been the case. We always go into detail as to what sets us apart, and what makes us unique. Why we do things a certain way, and what history there is there with it. The Livernois name being in the automotive industry for over 65 years didn't happen from arrogance, and it definitely hasn't been out there because we don't deliver on our statements.

I guess when you have been in the industry as long as we have you are just more aware of what goes on in the industry since history repeats itself with the release of ever new car. We also know that often times what we post goes against the rest of the industry because they have had years convincing people to do things a certain way. We feel we have a better way, which is a path we went down many years ago, and we knew it wouldn't be an easy path. But the easy path is never what we wanted.

We pride ourselves on a certain level of integrity, and we apologize if that is off-putting in anyway, but we stand by our scruples. We know we aren't going to win everyone over. We aren't trying to achieve world domination. We just want to educate, and show customer's the path that we have taken. If they want to join us down that path we welcome them, but we also harbor no hard feelings for those that go a different path. After all, we are all car people who love these things!

 

[jvm051]

Unfortunately our FB had not posted the message that we sent, but the message was typed up there:

date: Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 8:02 PM
subject: Re: Fwd: J*** M**** commented on a link Livernois Motorsports & Engineering shared.
mailed-by: livernoismotorsports.com

The messages between our FB staff and yourself definitely mostly answered with the final 2 not having the actual response posted for some reason, however they were posted now since they were still saved on the editor page. We definitely apologize for that, but it was not purposeful, nor avoidance. I am sure as a user of facebook you have seen that sometimes you hit post and nothing shows up, or you like something and later the like disappears. Technology is a great thing, but it has it's faults too.

Now, as far as anything close to "we are better just because" that has never been the case. We always go into detail as to what sets us apart, and what makes us unique. Why we do things a certain way, and what history there is there with it. The Livernois name being in the automotive industry for over 65 years didn't happen from arrogance, and it definitely hasn't been out there because we don't deliver on our statements.

I guess when you have been in the industry as long as we have you are just more aware of what goes on in the industry since history repeats itself with the release of ever new car. We also know that often times what we post goes against the rest of the industry because they have had years convincing people to do things a certain way. We feel we have a better way, which is a path we went down many years ago, and we knew it wouldn't be an easy path. But the easy path is never what we wanted.

We pride ourselves on a certain level of integrity, and we apologize if that is off-putting in anyway, but we stand by our scruples. We know we aren't going to win everyone over. We aren't trying to achieve world domination. We just want to educate, and show customer's the path that we have taken. If they want to join us down that path we welcome them, but we also harbor no hard feelings for those that go a different path. After all, we are all car people who love these things!

Thank you for responding. I am still interested in the need or not for the aftermarket thermostat. I have a Reische already waiting to be installed, and if it is a requirement for your tune. My concerns about data logging, come from my 3v days and finding that after data logging, I had a much more refined overall tune on my car, where previously it was running what I would say was unsafe. A few datalogs with the final tuner got the car running great all around and posted my best results at the track. This was after having a miserable E tune done, had to flash back to stock, a local and expensive dyno tune done and finally another company send me a base tune and within 2 data logging sessions had me satisfied. Now maybe with your tunes, data logging really is not needed. But if the consumer wants to know that everything is safe, is there any method for data logging with your setup. I am very OCD and this is my Daily Driver, so having this option is definitely comforting. I want to be able to get optimized for my car, and then essentially forget about it, and just enjoy the car.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Thank you for responding. I am still interested in the need or not for the aftermarket thermostat. I have a Reische already waiting to be installed, and if it is a requirement for your tune. My concerns about data logging, come from my 3v days and finding that after data logging, I had a much more refined overall tune on my car, where previously it was running what I would say was unsafe. A few datalogs with the final tuner got the car running great all around and posted my best results at the track. This was after having a miserable E tune done, had to flash back to stock, a local and expensive dyno tune done and finally another company send me a base tune and within 2 data logging sessions had me satisfied. Now maybe with your tunes, data logging really is not needed. But if the consumer wants to know that everything is safe, is there any method for data logging with your setup. I am very OCD and this is my Daily Driver, so having this option is definitely comforting. I want to be able to get optimized for my car, and then essentially forget about it, and just enjoy the car.

We definitely feel things like upgraded thermostats help, but if you had a bone stock car and wanted the tune, we would have no qualms with it at all. Now, we do have certain modifications we support remotely, and ones we don't. and there are a few reasons for this that I will outline below:

#1. requiring people do WOT runs to get data is dangerous. What if the tune isn't right? It might be too late once the pull is done, that doesn't even begin to take into account the personal safety either. Do you watch the info while doing the run and not focus on the road? or do you focus on the road and not watch any part of the data?

#2. There is so much more to tuning than just looking at data. It literally uses all of your senses. You can look at the data all you want but it might not tell you everything you need. We have a car in here right now that you can hear it break up, but it shows up on absolutely no datalogs of any kind. So it might be mechanical, it might be tuning, or it might be electrical, but nailing it down would be almost impossible if we were doing it remotely.

#3. Datalogging on newer cars requires access to a ton of stuff in the ECM. Most datalogging is generic PIDs, and while this can help shine the light on the path, it often time is no where near enough info to do it properly 80% of the time, this becomes especially true the more complex the modifications are. PIDs are designed for repair shops to help diagnose and repair completely unmodified vehicles.

#4. Sometimes to nail an issue or result down can mean a bunch of rapid fire changes. Sometimes this has meant over 100 flashes done in a single day. Think about how long something like that would take in a datalog session. Often this means someone is going to band aid a problem rather than find the source and correct it.

Now, an important item on #4, by spending the time it takes to do this, we end up with a more consistent result, which allows people to forgo the back and forth with logs. Since we are changing the proper parameters, as opposed to ones that get the job done, the tune reacts as it should every single time.

 

[65sohc]

Will this tune be available for the GT350?

 

[BluByeU]

Will this tune be available for the GT350?

Yes Terry (beefcake racing) posted it in the GT350 section today. Looks as though it added roughly 35-40 h/p to the wheels.

 

[LIVEWYR]

I purchased this product for my '13 SHO and was extremely impressed with how it woke the car up. Not only in the HP/TQ gains but with adjustments to the shift points in the transmission and crispness of the shifts. My question is, should similar changes be expected in the S550 tune with an A6 transmission? Thanks,

 

[Todd15Fastback]

Then 72 hours later your biggest competitor comes out with the same type of tune you claimed wasn't possible to duplicate.

Dunno, it may not matter to you all. But every single person in our 300 members just wrote the possibility of getting tuned by Livernois off their list as a result of these simple little exchanges.

I know if I were ownership, I'd be pissed at that.

Take it as you will.

sucks for those 300 people. Hopefully they're smart enough to do their own research and contact Livernois directly to see how standup and professional they really are.

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