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[Livernois Motorsports]

5-6 weeks! Wow, that in itself is crazy!

We have just short of 60 cars that are in line for installation and tuning. So no, there is no way that we could possibly turn a car around in a few days. We have 3 dynos, and a team of calibrators. It takes time for all that we do.

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[Process]

No transportation was on me. No going going over my build. Just tuning related and the device.

So whatever your tuning process is and your device.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

So figure about $700-$1000 to ship the car each way on top of the tuning costs and not have the car for 5-6 weeks.

This suggests that we quoted you on transportation.

 

[Process]

This suggests that we quoted you on transportation.

You quoted me $1750 for a device and tuning.

I stated transport costs because I've transported cars before.

Transportation was not in your quote. Just to clarify.

 

[Need4Speed15]

We have just short of 60 cars that are in line for installation and tuning. So no, there is no way that we could possibly turn a car around in a few days. We have 3 dynos, and a team of calibrators. It takes time for all that we do.

Being busy, that's understandable...and I know everything takes time. But 5-6 weeks sounds pretty excessive, especially if it will be sitting/waiting most of that time. Just surprised that it couldn't be scheduled for a 2 week window or something like that (with a firm commitment ofcourse).

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Being busy, that's understandable...and I know everything takes time. But 5-6 weeks sounds pretty excessive, especially if it will be sitting/waiting most of that time. Just surprised that it couldn't be scheduled for a 2 week window or something like that (with a firm commitment ofcourse).

That is what I am saying. I have searched every single estimate that we have generated for any 2015 MY vehicle this quarter. I have not been able to find anything resembling this at all.

It seems like the estimate that was given was a shoot from the hip guess on pricing, availability and time frame that it would take to get the car into the shop. As opposed to an official estimate that we would generate.

 

[Process]

Ok.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Well I am trying to help get to the bottom of this for you. I need more info so that I can help you out. You build sheet is pretty extensive as well, so the normal $750-850 for analysis and tuning session.

 

[zaquhree]

If you all are looking for quick turn around...I got the flex-fuel tune 2 days ago from Lund and we finalized the parameters today. These flex-fuel tunes are definitely the way to go either way.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

If you all are looking for quick turn around...I got the flex-fuel tune 2 days ago from Lund and we finalized the parameters today. These flex-fuel tunes are definitely the way to go either way.

We are talking about having the car in-house. Our remote tuning window is about 24 hours.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Your guy quoted me $1750

That's insane! Was that for an email tune and their tuner or was that a full blown dyno tune on their dyno with tuner? Even if it was a dyno tune that's very high! That would be like their tune and tuner and 7-8 hours on the dyno!

I did want to take a minute to clarify some things for this, and it will touch on some points on this as well.

#1. People thinking it's as simple as turning on a switch and calling it a day on the tuning are definitely incorrect.

#2. people thinking that it's as simple as putting in an F150 setup are also incorrect. The Mustang ECM has a different layout internally, and there are things that just don't cross or exist inside one ECM vs. the other

#3. Yes, 1750 and 5-6 weeks was quoted. Here is why this price is what it is:

It includes the device
It includes 2-3 weeks of on dyno time
It includes 2-3 weeks of drivability time

Now, for those that think this is excessive time involved, consider the following:

Ford had a team of calibration engineer's spend years doing the OEM cal. This is with every ford document, and tool at their disposal, plus access and ability to add, change, or delete hardware components and requirements as needed. Even then, the calibration get's revisions through it's lifespan because there are errors, or problems in the factory tune.

Now, while we have unmatched access to the ECM because of our own engineering efforts, we still don't have everything laid out the way Ford does. When you are developing things, there isn't a document, or someone dedicated to a specific area of the calibration to focus on everything. Because of this it takes time, real, man hour time to do it.

Could someone halfassed do it in a few days? Maybe, as the poster that we quoted is already running on E85, but even after several attempts to tune it with professionals, and himself, there are still issues at bay. We know that since it's not a combo we have ever done specifically, there is going to be a learning curve involved with it, and even with our knowledge on what we have done, it won't be able to be situated in a simple fashion.

So, in the end, 1750 for easily 100+ hours of work, including the necessary tuning hardware is ridiculously cheap. Consider many shops charge 150-350 per hour for tuning, and it will gain even more perspective.

If you want it done in hours, you will be going back time and time again chasing issues. If you want it done right, the believe us, 5-6 weeks is a glimpse into how much time is necessary to get this right. Even if it were the only car here, it would still take 3+ plus weeks easily.

Unfortunately the industry has trained people to either deal with poorly done calibrations done in a quick time, or that it's normal to make repeat trips to get issues sorted out with a tune. How many people have chased tune issues by sending datalogs back and forth with shops for months? Think about the amount of time you have spent on that, and think about the amount of time the tuner has, and it starts to make sense. We just do it all for you, in one trip, that's why there is a long time.

 

[Process]

It is not economically viable for you to spend hundreds of hours for $1750.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

It is not economically viable for you to spend hundreds of hours for $1750.

You're correct, it's not, but we do it anyways, because that's what makes us unique, and why we spend the time, and charge more than others and because the overall knowledge makes us better, so we view every job we take on as that.

So then the question begs this:

Should we tow the line every other shop does? That is, only spend a finite time on it and push it out the door?

Or should we charge by the hour and potentially have someone pay us 10k for the work of tuning their car?

You see, neither one of these help us earn the reputation that we have. Shortchanging the work is shortsighted. And trying to convince someone to spend that much tuning their car is necessary is never going to happen. So, we make the decision to charge a flat rate price for this sort of work, and tune it until it's proper.

Unfortunately because so many shops and customers are used to the "spend x hours on it and be done" they tend to put a hard limit on what they will spend. Although they are usually the same people that have invested 400-600 several times paying other people to tune their car, easily amassing more than what we are quoting to tune it in the first place.

See, I personally have been on that side of the fence, listening over and over again about which "affordable" shops should tune my car, or what mail order tuner should do it, putting myself in a never ending loop going back time after time to get things tweaked, and then giving up on a shop and moving to the next, until I decided to pay Livernois to tune my car. Finally when I picked up my car I had what I wanted, a car I could drive with zero drivability issues that I could just enjoy without having to work on constantly.

The issue is that people's mindset for what a dyno tune should cost hasn't changed over the last 12 years. 400-600 was still the number being thrown around as "normal" 12 years ago, just as it is today, and to me, spending that much money 2-3 times could have gotten my Livernois tune out of the way, but instead I wasted more money taking the "accepted" approach than what Livernois wanted before ever bringing the car here for tuning.

Now, when you think about this logically, cars are unbelievably more complex to calibrate today than they were 12 years ago, so the market is forcing calibrators to cut corners, resulting in a myriad of issues that just didn't exist in the past. This is a large reason why our engine build department is so busy any more. The horror stories we hear on brand new cars getting blown up is disappointing.

Now, none of this is necessarily intended to fear monger, we just want people to understand exactly the reason why something costs, and requires so much time spent. I also realize that this post will not change some people's idea's as to what something should entail, or should cost, but to not explain why our mindset and approach is unique would be an error on our part.

 

[Need4Speed15]

I understand the position of defending your company and I also understand the position of thinking your companies tuning, tuning device & software is superior. But to come off disrespectful and arrogant regarding your peers and competition in the industry is not a good thing.

Competition breeds better products and breakthroughs in technology. Sometimes recognizing the quality of your competition is a good thing, it makes you to reflect on your company and products and forces you to try to do better.

 

[Mikeg4572]

Let's get this thread back on topic! I want to see and hear more about Flex Tuning!

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