Gen2 or Gen3 for dedicated track car?

[Hivel]

I’m building a dedicated track car. I’m gonna put a Gen2 or Gen3 in it. Which one would perform better?

Gen2 Pros
1) $1500 cheaper
2) Sleaved block
3) Turn key kit using Ford Performance Power Module

Gen3 Pros
1) Better intake
2) Better heads
3) Better harmonic damper
4) Better head bolts
5) Higher compression
7) Per cylinder knock sensors
8) Direct injection
9) Higher redline
10) Bigger MAF/CAI
11) Better road race oil pan

I have the Gen3 in my street car. Love the power. But, still not sold on its reliability.

Which one would you choose to run 20-minute track sessions?

Thanks,

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[morgande]

$1500 isn’t too much if your talking a dedicated motor for a dedicated track car. I assume your goals is a NA mill with as high a redline as you can get safely?

Pound for pound the Gen 3 is going to make more power and torque. Their is nothing you can do to a Gen 2 motor to mitigate that fact. And the specific advantages to the Gen 3 motor cannot be added to the Gen 2.

What it boils down to is cost and reliability. Cost not so much a big factor IMHO. Reliability is a different story. I would use a Gen 2 motor personally, it’s jusf a safer option and I would be risk adverse on a project like this assuming I have a fixed budget and a limited number of resources to dedicate to this project. But this is me speaking personally. If your much more tolerable to these issues, then you can try a Gen 3....but I wouldn’t do it unless the Ford factory GT4 car is running a Gen 3 mill. If Ford is still on a G2 car for its factory racing program then you should be too lol

 

[Grimace427]

I would take the cheaper(to own and maintain) and more reliable engine over the more powerful engine for a track car. There are many ways to go faster around a track than simply from horsepower.

 

[EFI]

I’m building a dedicated track car. I’m gonna put a Gen2 or Gen3 in it. Which one would perform better?

Gen2 Pros
1) $1500 cheaper

Thanks,

For $1500 you can mitigate alot of the benefits of the Gen 3, so it all comes down to reliability. The first 2 gens have been out since 2011 and mainly reliable, while the 3rd gen has only been out a year.

IMO, I would choose the Gen 2 and toss on a 18 intake, some OPGs and an ATI balancer with the $1500 in savings over the Gen 3.

 

[Hivel]

I assume your goals is a NA mill with as high a redline as you can get safely?

I wouldn’t do it unless the Ford factory GT4 car is running a Gen 3 mill. If Ford is still on a G2 car for its factory racing program then you should be too lol

Yes, it will be a NA car. I’m looking at the Gen3 for its higher red line. The extra HP/torque won’t be worth the risk.

The GT4 cars use the 5.2XS engines. Those cost ~$10,000 more than a Gen2. The 5.2XS is closer to a Gen3 motor. But, I’d rather spend the extra cash on brakes and aero.

Looks like I may go Gen2. Although, it hurts leaving all that performance on the table.

Thanks,

 

[Zelek]

Yes, it will be a NA car. I’m looking at the Gen3 for its higher red line. The extra HP/torque won’t be worth the risk.

The GT4 cars use the 5.2XS engines. Those cost ~$10,000 more than a Gen2. The 5.2XS is closer to a Gen3 motor. But, I’d rather spend the extra cash on brakes and aero.

Looks like I may go Gen2. Although, it hurts leaving all that performance on the table.

Thanks,

So buy an 18 ported intake manifold and move the redline to 8100-8200 rpm. You aren't leaving that much performance on the table.

 

[EVL-S550]

Yes, it will be a NA car. I’m looking at the Gen3 for its higher red line. The extra HP/torque won’t be worth the risk.

The GT4 cars use the 5.2XS engines. Those cost ~$10,000 more than a Gen2. The 5.2XS is closer to a Gen3 motor. But, I’d rather spend the extra cash on brakes and aero.

Looks like I may go Gen2. Although, it hurts leaving all that performance on the table.

Thanks,

Way more Gen 2 support out there right now than Gen 3. I know Gen 3 will catch-up, but FRP has all the goodies for the Gen 2 Coyote readily avail.

 

[ddozier]

Yes, it will be a NA car. I’m looking at the Gen3 for its higher red line. The extra HP/torque won’t be worth the risk.

The GT4 cars use the 5.2XS engines. Those cost ~$10,000 more than a Gen2. The 5.2XS is closer to a Gen3 motor. But, I’d rather spend the extra cash on brakes and aero.

Looks like I may go Gen2. Although, it hurts leaving all that performance on the table.

Thanks,

A stock valve train in either Gen2 or Gen3 is not going to survive for dedicated track duty if spun much over 7200 RPM regularly. The Gen2 already have issues when used above 7500 rpm for a dedicated track car. There are plenty of valve issues when used to the extreme duty that a well driven track car will see in 20-25min sessions. When Ford designed the 5.2 heads they changes everything, springs, valves, cams, geometry, chains, and followers. That was required to achieve the 8250 RPM redline. The 52XS have even more upgrades in the valve train over the GT350 and Ford still recommends 8000 RPM redline for track use, if you choose to run it higher you can but the service interval to rebuild the top end is like 50 hours of use, so for the average guy that is every season to do a freshening.

The Gen2 heads are fine but the stuff loaded into them is not made to handle prolonged exposure to high RPM. If you do not plan to open the motor and address these issues change the gearing and keep peak RPMs in the 7200-7500 range, If you go above that you will have to address it sooner than later and you will likely have to start over when you do.

All of the OEM Gen2 and Gen3 parts are built to a design limit that did not take into account extended track duty. 100,000+ miles of normal road car use was the target. Consider this the OEM exhaust valves retail for $10.47, the Intake valves retail for $4.70, the valve springs retail for $4.40 and these parts are shared with the 5.0 in the F-150. I am sure Ford has some tremendous buying power but if you consider cost plus Ford's profit, Parts Division profit, Dealer Profit most of these parts likely have a true cost of a buck or two. You cannot expect these production pieces to survive the riggers of track duty when driven to the max potential. Honestly I am amazed at how well the things stay together as it is but it is a lot to ask for a $4 valve spring to deal with 20 min sessions of 6-8000 rpm driven in anger.

If you do not plan to build a motor I would consider doing a Gen3 (for the lower end TQ and higher peak HP) with 3.31 or 3.55 gears depending on the tracks you will be on most and try not to turn it over 7200 regularly, add a dedicated oil cooler (think big Setrab 6 series 50 row min.) and take whatever steps you can to duct the radiator and vent the hood to promote better cooling. The Coyote runs hot and runs very hot when used above 7000 rpms, getting coolant and oil temps in check is the key to reliability. Target getting CHT is the 200-210* range, oil temps in the 200-215* and coolant temps in the 180-190* range.

Dave

 

[EFI]

Dave, I think you're underestimating the Gen 2 top end, it's basically the same as the Boss 302 and those came with 7500rpm limits straight from the factory and was reliable beyond that.

The Mustang also has different valves and springs than the F150.

What exactly is the valvetrain issue at high RPMs that's related purely to component strength (or lackthereof) and is not at all related to oiling and oil temps?

 

[BmacIL]

Dave, I think you're underestimating the Gen 2 top end, it's basically the same as the Boss 302 and those came with 7500rpm limits straight from the factory and was reliable beyond that.

The Mustang also has different valves and springs than the F150.

What exactly is the valvetrain issue at high RPMs that's related purely to component strength (or lackthereof) and is not at all related to oiling and oil temps?

The gen 2 does not have valvetrain issues below 8000 rpm. Its cams and stock intake manifold make it a waste to rev beyond 7200, though. 18GT, GT350, CJ manifolds allow for more power, higher up (peak near 7200 vs 6750). Aftermarket cams are needed to make the best of the CJ or GT350 manifolds.

 

[ddozier]

Dave, I think you're underestimating the Gen 2 top end, it's basically the same as the Boss 302 and those came with 7500rpm limits straight from the factory and was reliable beyond that.

The Mustang also has different valves and springs than the F150.

What exactly is the valvetrain issue at high RPMs that's related purely to component strength (or lackthereof) and is not at all related to oiling and oil temps?

I personally have had two dropped valves and neither of them where caused by the same mechanical failure. One was an exhaust valve and one was an intake valve. One was a valve issue itself with the hat separating from the stem and the other was from a collapsed lifter and subsequent follower failure. The lifter failure was likely from aerated oil but no way to prove that and since the cam journals and the rest of the lifters did not show any signs of oil loss or excessive oil temperature we had to assume the part failed. In my case one failure was on the drivers head the other on the passenger head in two completely different motors, both motors were repairable but required a new head on each. Beyond my 2 mechanical failures I have torn down several other Gen2 Coyotes from dedicated track use to help determine the issue with no consistent failure point other than its always valvetrain. On the other motors I have done the tear downs the valvetrain failures lead to catastrophic engine damage and a long block was needed to complete the repairs. With the amount of damage on those failures it would be very difficult to determine the exact failure point. There are many other threads on the top end issues for dedicated track use I am not the first or the last.

Everyone makes a blanket statement that the valvetrain is safe to 8000 RPM but again it all comes down to how you plan to use the engine. My comments about shifting at 7200 have nothing to do with the intake or if it will make power above 7200, All of my builds have had GT350 intake manifolds and they all make peak power right around 7500 RPM. My reasons for limiting RPMs is purely for reliability and heat management. The OEM heads may very well be happy to 8000 rpm on the street or drag strip but if you drive the car as a dedicated track car and it is driven to maintain 5000-8000 rpm for 20-25min you will quickly find that the OEM valvetrain is the limiting factor to being reliable when those RPMs are sustained. If you drive the car aggressively and pull to an 8000 RPM shift point you will never drop below 6000 rpm on your upshifts, rev match downshifts and you never drop below 5000 rpm. Again not everyone is going to do this but a dedicated track car will likely be driven like this in the hands of a seasoned driver. The Boss 302 also had valve and rod issues when pushed above 7500 rpm and since the 2015-2017 share the same spring it is part of the reason I recommend a 7200 rpm shift point. It is also the reason I recommend changing form the 3.73 to the 3.51 or 3.33 gear it allows you to run higher MPH in each given gear and that is going to allow most guys to run at less peak RPM and still reach the MPH they need on the faster tracks. A few guys find the gear change to allow for a few less shifts and faster lap times depending on the track layout.

The Coyote is a tough little engine and that is one of the reasons I chose the S550 as a viable platform for my dedicated track cars, but in stock form with modest bolt-ons it has not been as reliable as I had hoped it would be and that is what the OP asked about. There are a ton of factors that go into making a reliable track car and the OEM Coyote needs several minor upgrades to be more reliable under extreme use conditions like a dedicated track car is likely to see. Take the steps needed and they become more reliable but asking OEM internals to deal with race like conditions on track is always going to be asking a lot. In the end it is a mass produced product and the economy of scale by sharing parts with the F-150 is the only thing that allows Ford to continue making the Mustang GT with a V8 engine. It also makes is possible to replace a short block for less than $2000 in parts and a head for less than $500 in parts costs.

In 2018 F-150 and Mustang GT share the same valve spring JR3Z-6513-B, Intake valve JL3Z-6507-A, Exhaust valve JL3Z-6505-A, and entire head assemblies JL3Z-6049-G, JL3Z-6049-F
In 2015-2017 F-150 and Mustang GT share the same valve spring CR3Z-6513-A, This is the same spring used in the 2012-2013 Boss 302 GT, only the valves are different in the 2015-2017 Mustang, the 2011-2017 F-150 share the same valve as the 2011-2014 Mustang GT.

Dave

 

[BmacIL]

I personally have had two dropped valves and neither of them where caused by the same mechanical failure. One was an exhaust valve and one was an intake valve. One was a valve issue itself with the hat separating from the stem and the other was from a collapsed lifter and subsequent follower failure. The lifter failure was likely from aerated oil but no way to prove that and since the cam journals and the rest of the lifters did not show any signs of oil loss or excessive oil temperature we had to assume the part failed. In my case one failure was on the drivers head the other on the passenger head in two completely different motors, both motors were repairable but required a new head on each. Beyond my 2 mechanical failures I have torn down several other Gen2 Coyotes from dedicated track use to help determine the issue with no consistent failure point other than its always valvetrain. On the other motors I have done the tear downs the valvetrain failures lead to catastrophic engine damage and a long block was needed to complete the repairs. With the amount of damage on those failures it would be very difficult to determine the exact failure point. There are many other threads on the top end issues for dedicated track use I am not the first or the last.

Everyone makes a blanket statement that the valvetrain is safe to 8000 RPM but again it all comes down to how you plan to use the engine. My comments about shifting at 7200 have nothing to do with the intake or if it will make power above 7200, All of my builds have had GT350 intake manifolds and they all make peak power right around 7500 RPM. My reasons for limiting RPMs is purely for reliability and heat management. The OEM heads may very well be happy to 8000 rpm on the street or drag strip but if you drive the car as a dedicated track car and it is driven to maintain 5000-8000 rpm for 20-25min you will quickly find that the OEM valvetrain is the limiting factor to being reliable when those RPMs are sustained. If you drive the car aggressively and pull to an 8000 RPM shift point you will never drop below 6000 rpm on your upshifts, rev match downshifts and you never drop below 5000 rpm. Again not everyone is going to do this but a dedicated track car will likely be driven like this in the hands of a seasoned driver. The Boss 302 also had valve and rod issues when pushed above 7500 rpm and since the 2015-2017 share the same spring it is part of the reason I recommend a 7200 rpm shift point. It is also the reason I recommend changing form the 3.73 to the 3.51 or 3.33 gear it allows you to run higher MPH in each given gear and that is going to allow most guys to run at less peak RPM and still reach the MPH they need on the faster tracks. A few guys find the gear change to allow for a few less shifts and faster lap times depending on the track layout.

The Coyote is a tough little engine and that is one of the reasons I chose the S550 as a viable platform for my dedicated track cars, but in stock form with modest bolt-ons it has not been as reliable as I had hoped it would be and that is what the OP asked about. There are a ton of factors that go into making a reliable track car and the OEM Coyote needs several minor upgrades to be more reliable under extreme use conditions like a dedicated track car is likely to see. Take the steps needed and they become more reliable but asking OEM internals to deal with race like conditions on track is always going to be asking a lot. In the end it is a mass produced product and the economy of scale by sharing parts with the F-150 is the only thing that allows Ford to continue making the Mustang GT with a V8 engine. It also makes is possible to replace a short block for less than $2000 in parts and a head for less than $500 in parts costs.

In 2018 F-150 and Mustang GT share the same valve spring JR3Z-6513-B, Intake valve JL3Z-6507-A, Exhaust valve JL3Z-6505-A, and entire head assemblies JL3Z-6049-G, JL3Z-6049-F
In 2015-2017 F-150 and Mustang GT share the same valve spring CR3Z-6513-A, This is the same spring used in the 2012-2013 Boss 302 GT, only the valves are different in the 2015-2017 Mustang, the 2011-2017 F-150 share the same valve as the 2011-2014 Mustang GT.

Dave

Are you running an aftermarket pan, what oil? To me sounds like a very slight oiling issue.

 

[ddozier]

Are you running an aftermarket pan, what oil? To me sounds like a very slight oiling issue.

All my builds have a Moroso road race pan as min. I am researching dry sump options for my current build. I have always run Mobile1 5w50.

Things start getting complicated when you make the move to race slicks, the G-forces acting on the oil in any pan are very difficult to control and ultimately the solution may be to dry sump the car. Anyone tracking on more than street tires should consider a race pan unless you have the 2018 or GT350 oil pan, then you can push a little farther but by the time you are running Hoosiers or race slicks you should consider an upgrade.

Dave

 

[BmacIL]

All my builds have a Moroso road race pan as min. I am researching dry sump options for my current build. I have always run Mobile1 5w50.

Things start getting complicated when you make the move to race slicks, the G-forces acting on the oil in any pan are very difficult to control and ultimately the solution may be to dry sump the car. Anyone tracking on more than street tires should consider a race pan unless you have the 2018 or GT350 oil pan, then you can push a little farther but by the time you are running Hoosiers or race slicks you should consider an upgrade.

Dave

Yeah this is definitely a level beyond where the typical HPDE guy is on 200TW tires. Dry sump is the real answer to ensure consistency.

 

[arionii_s550]

All my builds have a Moroso road race pan as min. I am researching dry sump options for my current build. I have always run Mobile1 5w50.

Things start getting complicated when you make the move to race slicks, the G-forces acting on the oil in any pan are very difficult to control and ultimately the solution may be to dry sump the car. Anyone tracking on more than street tires should consider a race pan unless you have the 2018 or GT350 oil pan, then you can push a little farther but by the time you are running Hoosiers or race slicks you should consider an upgrade.

Dave

What are some recommendations for Reliable valve terrain, would upgrading springs be enough? I want to plan a build that gives me piece of mind while on the track, I know the obvious oil pan and oil pump gears but I’m not sure what everyone’s doing for valve terrain.
I also wanted to add that I was planning on using cobra jet intake manifold And long tubes of that means anything.

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