Gen 6 3.0L whipple stage 2 E85?

[thewicked5oh]

Do I need to do anything to run E85 on my setup just has everything the kit came with installed
-2019 Mustang GT 10r80
-Gen 6 Whipple 3.0L stage 2

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[robvas]

"Ask your tuner"

 

[engineermike]

Technically all you need is a BAP and a flex tune, but good luck finding a tuner that will do it.

 

[4sdvenom]

Technically all you need is a BAP and a flex tune, but good luck finding a tuner that will do it.

Mike, is that because most tuners want you to switch to a return style system or because of the EPA hammer coming down on everyone?
Thanks,

 

[engineermike]

Mike, is that because most tuners want you to switch to a return style system or because of the EPA hammer coming down on everyone?
Thanks,

For some reason they all seem to want you to buy 1200 hp worth of fuel system to make 850. I can only theorize as to why. It could be because they want to sell more parts. It could be because they have a tried-and-true (e.g. "canned") tune that they've proven to work so they just want everyone to replicate the working combo. It could be that they expect people to pulley down later on without tune or fuel system revisions so they want it to keep working for future growth. Or it could be because they developed it for a gen2 and proven it out, even though the gen3 doesn't need it. Who knows.

On the flex tuning, there were a few things going on. For starters, the gen2 flex learning in the mustang worked ok but the gen2 pcm did not have the logic to add/subtract from timing or load limits as a function of learned ethanol. So basically all flex-tuning was attempting to run full e85 timing on pump gas and rely on knock sensors to protect the engine, which is not a great strategy. The gen3 had some big advances around ethanol learning, such as floating timing and even boost as a function of ethanol content, which was amazing. However, the gen3 had some hidden parameters that were defaulted incorrectly for ethanol learning which prevented accurate learning on fuel switches, which is problematic to say the least. Then PCMTec decoded those parameters (9 fuel line volume parameters, specifically) and suddenly flex tuning a gen3 was truly unlocked...but it seems the commercial tuners are still slow (or stopped) in adopting it. FWIW flex tuning in the F150's works even better but all the background logic was already defaulted properly from Ford. The remaining flex issues are around potential for an air leak to cause improper learning (though this has been tested and won't be an issue the gross majority of the time) and the potential for someone to switch from E85 to 93 then immediately floor it upon exiting the gas station, causing it to run E85 timing on 93. I would argue that this could be handled with a very small amount of driver-education and caution and even if not, then the knock sensors will usually protect it in this situation. I did set mine up to only add the timing if the learned ethanol exceeds 50% so you can watch the a/f ratio gauge and know that when it reads below 12/1 it's adding the timing.

 

[Angrey]

For some reason they all seem to want you to buy 1200 hp worth of fuel system to make 850. I can only theorize as to why. It could be because they want to sell more parts. It could be because they have a tried-and-true (e.g. "canned") tune that they've proven to work so they just want everyone to replicate the working combo. It could be that they expect people to pulley down later on without tune or fuel system revisions so they want it to keep working for future growth. Or it could be because they developed it for a gen2 and proven it out, even though the gen3 doesn't need it. Who knows.

On the flex tuning, there were a few things going on. For starters, the gen2 flex learning in the mustang worked ok but the gen2 pcm did not have the logic to add/subtract from timing or load limits as a function of learned ethanol. So basically all flex-tuning was attempting to run full e85 timing on pump gas and rely on knock sensors to protect the engine, which is not a great strategy. The gen3 had some big advances around ethanol learning, such as floating timing and even boost as a function of ethanol content, which was amazing. However, the gen3 had some hidden parameters that were defaulted incorrectly for ethanol learning which prevented accurate learning on fuel switches, which is problematic to say the least. Then PCMTec decoded those parameters (9 fuel line volume parameters, specifically) and suddenly flex tuning a gen3 was truly unlocked...but it seems the commercial tuners are still slow (or stopped) in adopting it. FWIW flex tuning in the F150's works even better but all the background logic was already defaulted properly from Ford. The remaining flex issues are around potential for an air leak to cause improper learning (though this has been tested and won't be an issue the gross majority of the time) and the potential for someone to switch from E85 to 93 then immediately floor it upon exiting the gas station, causing it to run E85 timing on 93. I would argue that this could be handled with a very small amount of driver-education and caution and even if not, then the knock sensors will usually protect it in this situation. I did set mine up to only add the timing if the learned ethanol exceeds 50% so you can watch the a/f ratio gauge and know that when it reads below 12/1 it's adding the timing.

At least with SOME of them, it's A) pushing parts and systems that they're "comfortable" with, which could mean anything from they get less complaints and issues (aka less residual work load) and for some of them it's just laziness or complacency. For others, it's pushing parts that they get free stuff/promo discounts and gear for their business/personal use. So if you're a tuner who's sponsored or supported by a particular vendor, then you recommend or in some cases demand that your customers in turn feature their product(s).

Tuning largely became, "this is what we will direct you to do" rather than "how can I help you tune your car?"

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