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Front only camber adjustment vs no adjustment

SgdriskillGT

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I have the 2019 adjustable top strut mounts for my GT350R. My mechanic recommended not adding negative camber to the front until I can add camber to the rear. My understanding is no rear camber adjustment can be made without aftermarket parts.

I have an HPDE track day tomorrow so no time to install parts. He thought the imbalance of grip front to back would make it hard to drive on track, ie the back end would come out more easily I think.

Does this sound right? Or should I go ahead and add negative camber in the front only?
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PoppinJ

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Add it to the front. The mustang is a heavy girl, it will help on the front. He is kinda right about it behaving differently if the rear is not adjusted but so what. What's it at now? A car is rarely perfectly neutral anyways and it will definately benefit from front negative camber.

Don't know anything about the 350R but the rear is adjustable. You really have to know what your looking for as the bolt isn't marked or anything. It's the camber arm bolt next to the frame for the rear suspension. It's a slotted bolt hole.
 
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SgdriskillGT

SgdriskillGT

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Add it to the front. The mustang is a heavy girl, it will help on the front. He is kinda right about it behaving differently if the rear is not adjusted but so what. What's it at now? A car is rarely perfectly neutral anyways and it will definately benefit from front negative camber.

Don't know anything about the 350R but the rear is adjustable. You really have to know what your looking for as the bolt isn't marked or anything. It's the camber arm bolt next to the frame for the rear suspension. It's a slotted bolt hole.
That's what I was thinking re: front, thank you for confirming. I already left the shop...but it actually looks easier than I thought to use the adjustable mounts. Just need to loosen the three top nuts and slide/move the strut rod. I'm already planning on putting the car up on jacks to flush the brake fluid, so it should be pretty easy to make this adjustment as well. Looks to be tracks for the three mount bolts to move, i.e. add camber, while not changing anything else. That was my original worry.

For the rear, I'll look for that bolt. I believe the back is at -0.7 now which is the street alignment.

I'm guessing tightening would add more negative camber?

(PS I'll change the toe settings next time when I have more than 15 hours until track time...)
 

PoppinJ

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You don't tighten the bolt, you listen it at the frame and the whole camber arm can slide in and out. It's usually enough to give -1.5 to -2.

For the fronts you are correct. Make sure the suspension isn't loaded up, loosen the three bolts, I'm assuming you'll just max it out, then tighten back down. Looks like you already realize that you are throwing everything else out of wack. Not the best idea for handling but prob not dangerous.

You are about to destroy your tires doing a track day with tow settings all over the place. Be careful with the rear, rear toe can make the car really unpredictable under acceleration.
 
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SgdriskillGT

SgdriskillGT

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You don't tighten the bolt, you listen it at the frame and the whole camber arm can slide in and out. It's usually enough to give -1.5 to -2.

For the fronts you are correct. Make sure the suspension isn't loaded up, loosen the three bolts, I'm assuming you'll just max it out, then tighten back down. Looks like you already realize that you are throwing everything else out of wack. Not the best idea for handling but prob not dangerous.

You are about to destroy your tires doing a track day with tow settings all over the place. Be careful with the rear, rear toe can make the car really unpredictable under acceleration.
Wouldn't the toe settings stay the same in the front b/c the tracks make sure only the camber is changed? Actually wouldn't the rear stay the same too?

Sounds like I'm oversimplifying this...please let me know.


**EDIT -- so it seems to be common knowledge that changing camber also changes the toe...I guess I'm just too dumb to know why haha. If someone could educate me that would be appreciated.**
 
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BmacIL

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Wouldn't the toe settings stay the same in the front b/c the tracks make sure only the camber is changed? Actually wouldn't the rear stay the same too?

Sounds like I'm oversimplifying this...please let me know.


**EDIT -- so it seems to be common knowledge that changing camber also changes the toe...I guess I'm just too dumb to know why haha. If someone could educate me that would be appreciated.**
Because of how the knuckle attaches to the arm. The knuckle has a rear spherical that bolts to the lower control arm, and is constrained by the vertical link, toe arm and camber arm.
 
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SgdriskillGT

SgdriskillGT

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Because of how the knuckle attaches to the arm. The knuckle has a rear spherical that bolts to the lower control arm, and is constrained by the vertical link, toe arm and camber arm.
Got it, thank you. I'm now wondering if leaving the camber at stock setting is better than creating an unknown amount of toe change. Seems like either way is going to really wear the tires on a road course. I'm leaning towards adding the camber though and seeing what happens.


@BmacIL Do you have an opinion?
 

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Got it, thank you. I'm now wondering if leaving the camber at stock setting is better than creating an unknown amount of toe change. Seems like either way is going to really wear the tires on a road course. I'm leaning towards adding the camber though and seeing what happens.


@BmacIL Do you have an opinion?
What are your alignment settings now?

I would absolutely add front camber for the road course, unless you like replacing tires earlier than necessary. Front camber changes to indeed affect toe because it's a strut front end and when the knuckle moves and the tie road doesn't, you have toe change. Front toe is very easy to adjust.
 
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SgdriskillGT

SgdriskillGT

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What are your alignment settings now?

I would absolutely add front camber for the road course, unless you like replacing tires earlier than necessary. Front camber changes to indeed affect toe because it's a strut front end and when the knuckle moves and the tie road doesn't, you have toe change. Front toe is very easy to adjust.
I'm at stock alignment which for the front is:
-1.16 deg Camber
0.10 deg in Toe (total)

Suggested track alignment for front is (this is prob where the camber plates stop too):
-2.2 deg Camber
0.10 deg in Toe (total)

I have a camber tool to tell what my camber is, but I don't have one for the toe. I'm leaning towards adjusting the camber and hoping the toe change doesn't have a giant affect.
 

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I'm at stock alignment which for the front is:
-1.16 deg Camber
0.10 deg in Toe (total)

Suggested track alignment for front is (this is prob where the camber plates stop too):
-2.2 deg Camber
0.10 deg in Toe (total)

I have a camber tool to tell what my camber is, but I don't have one for the toe. I'm leaning towards adjusting the camber and hoping the toe change doesn't have a giant affect.
What about the rear?

Do you actually have an alignment sheet? Unfortunately just because that's the factory nominal spec, doesn't mean you're there. There is a very wide 'Green' range. I would spec the toe a tad closer to 0.00. If you can get to -2.2 front (or even up to -2.5) you will be better off. There's enough understeer designed into the car's stock suspension that you won't have instability.
 

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SgdriskillGT

SgdriskillGT

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What about the rear?

Do you actually have an alignment sheet? Unfortunately just because that's the factory nominal spec, doesn't mean you're there. There is a very wide 'Green' range. I would spec the toe a tad closer to 0.00. If you can get to -2.2 front (or even up to -2.5) you will be better off. There's enough understeer designed into the car's stock suspension that you won't have instability.
No I don't have an alignment sheet. Just measured the fronts at about -1.06 deg camber, so need to add over a degree. The rears are at about -0.7 deg camber, also would like to add approx one degree negative. I don't know what the toe is in actuality front or rear.

I went to my local shop which usually is pretty knowledgeable, but they couldn't figure out how to adjust either front or rear camber. Pretty annoying. So now I'm winging it trying to get ready for tomorrow haha.

Not sure how worried I should be about the toe.
 

BmacIL

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No I don't have an alignment sheet. Just measured the fronts at about -1.06 deg camber, so need to add over a degree. The rears are at about -0.7 deg camber, also would like to add approx one degree negative. I don't know what the toe is in actuality front or rear.

I went to my local shop which usually is pretty knowledgeable, but they couldn't figure out how to adjust either front or rear camber. Pretty annoying. So now I'm winging it trying to get ready for tomorrow haha.

Not sure how worried I should be about the toe.
Front camber isn't adjustable without plates or bolts. Not sure how you're planning on getting more. The rear camber is adjustable via the slot in the subframe where the arm attaches to it. As for toe, getting the steer-ahead and thrust angles to 0.00 is important for consistency and predictability. I would not recommend more than 0.10 deg total in the front, a tad less would be better. For the rear, 0.10-0.12 per side, 0.20-0.23 total, is ideal.
 
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SgdriskillGT

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Front camber isn't adjustable without plates or bolts. Not sure how you're planning on getting more. The rear camber is adjustable via the slot in the subframe where the arm attaches to it. As for toe, getting the steer-ahead and thrust angles to 0.00 is important for consistency and predictability. I would not recommend more than 0.10 deg total in the front, a tad less would be better. For the rear, 0.10-0.12 per side, 0.20-0.23 total, is ideal.
2019 350 (handling pack) and 350R come with camber plates (they call them adjustable front mounts). Problem is I have no idea what toe I will be at. This is why I went to an alignment shop today...so it would have been nice if they knew what they were doing and could make the adjustments correctly.

So now it's either make the camber adjustments and hope and prey about the toe...or do nothing at all.
 

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2019 350 (handling pack) and 350R come with camber plates (they call them adjustable front mounts).
Ah I see the original post now. I was looking at your signature and was confused. Toe is very easy for the shop to adjust. I'd have them do it after you adjust front camber.
 
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SgdriskillGT

SgdriskillGT

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Ah I see the original post now. I was looking at your signature and was confused. Toe is very easy for the shop to adjust. I'd have them do it after you adjust front camber.
Problem is I don't have time. Don't think I can get an alignment in the next couple hours before everywhere closes. This is why I'm pissed at the shop I took it to earlier today.
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