Found this metal on my oil plug. What is this?

[sk47]

Probably because ive hit 8495+ rpm quite a few times. I have some logs of this. Obv cant do that on a stock tune.



I lost some of the pieces unfortunately after taking the pictures.



Ive been sending it and it seems fine still. And if I drain my new oil and ceratec im saving it and reusing it after putting a magnet in it. I may not even do that though. Still all good so far.

Hello; Still all good so far. Guess that means you are still driving the car???

And IF you drain the "new oil and additive" it will be reused??? Could be a good way to save tens of dollars and get to spend thousands later. At the very least filter the used oil somehow. Here is a thing that seems possible. The metal clips broke up into pieces. If you are extremely lucky they were all big pieces. But if i recall from looking at the images you had a lot of fine metal "hair" on the magnetic drain plug.
As another member suggested do a couple of back to back oil changes with cheap conventional oil with a new filter if you insist on still driving the car.

The tune likely is not the issue. Very likely it's the over 8495 RPM often regardless of the tune.

I am following this thread for the same reason i follow other threads with an interesting technical issue. I am wild guessing after following the thread for a while those extra clips on the rocker arms are too flimsy to live with all the RPMs. Maybe some weakness in the metal. Maybe some resonant vibration at high RPM's. Maybe some other thing. That others have had issues and some actually remove the clips in question is some sort of clue.

Anyway, please keep posting your adventures regardless of the path you take.

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[PoCoBob]

This is purely a guess on my part but I think the issue is at the rpm's his engine reached the valves started floating. If you don't know what that means it's when the valves can't close fast enough to match the speed the engine is turning. That would cause the cam to lose contact with the rocker arm (I have learnt they're really called cam followers). Once that happens the cam lobes start pounding on the follower which most likely creates a weird vibration on the components. The fix for this is stronger valve springs that can close faster, but require more pressure to open. Again this is pure speculation on my part.

 

[sk47]

This is purely a guess on my part but I think the issue is at the rpm's his engine reached the valves started floating. If you don't know what that means it's when the valves can't close fast enough to match the speed the engine is turning. That would cause the cam to lose contact with the rocker arm (I have learnt they're really called cam followers). Once that happens the cam lobes start pounding on the follower which most likely creates a weird vibration on the components. The fix for this is stronger valve springs that can close faster, but require more pressure to open. Again this is pure speculation on my part.

Hello; Float at high RPMs is real with springs. 8400 + RPM is a lot. F1 went to pneumatic valve actuation years ago to get extreme valve action at high RPM's.
Ducati ( motorcycles ) do not use springs in some engines. Forget the term for it. ( desmonic maybe???) Anyway, they use a cam to both open and another cam to close the valves.

There are ways to make valve train components live at high RPMs and my guess is most, if not all, are already in place in an 8500 RPM engine.

 

[GT450]

Desmodromic vales are what your thing of.

 

[Cobra Jet]

This is purely a guess on my part but I think the issue is at the rpm's his engine reached the valves started floating. If you don't know what that means it's when the valves can't close fast enough to match the speed the engine is turning. That would cause the cam to lose contact with the rocker arm (I have learnt they're really called cam followers). Once that happens the cam lobes start pounding on the follower which most likely creates a weird vibration on the components. The fix for this is stronger valve springs that can close faster, but require more pressure to open. Again this is pure speculation on my part.

That's a very good analysis and most likely a high probability.

So what purpose does the clip serve IF it serves no purpose at all as claimed by some in this thread? If it's problematic, such as able to break apart at higher RPM, then why is it part of the assembly?

 

[Andy13186]

That's a very good analysis and most likely a high probability.

So what purpose does the clip serve IF it serves no jurors at all as claimed by some in this thread? If it's problematic, such as able to break apart at higher RPM, then why is it part of the assembly?

In my opinion with a stock tune there is probably almost 0% chance of this coming off so ford doesn't care about removing. IDK though. It would be nice if they did if its not necessary though and I do wonder how many tuned engine failures have been due to this happening. My car is still running perfect though. Just raced a fast tuned M4 earlier from 50 to like 160 which was literally dead even with my car, no problems still. I do drive my car insanely hard because I only drive for fun so its probably pretty rare that this happens even on tuned cars. Or maybe its common but most people just use stock non magnetic oil plugs and never see the pieces.. IDK.

 

[PoCoBob]

In my opinion with a stock tune there is probably almost 0% chance of this coming off so ford doesn't care about removing. IDK though. It would be nice if they did if its not necessary though and I do wonder how many tuned engine failures have been due to this happening. My car is still running perfect though. Just raced a fast tuned M4 earlier from 50 to like 160 which was literally dead even with my car, no problems still. I do drive my car insanely hard because I only drive for fun so its probably pretty rare that this happens even on tuned cars. Or maybe its common but most people just use stock non magnetic oil plugs and never see the pieces.. IDK.

I'll call this an educated guess. If you look at the rocker arm there's one end that has a channel in it, the end of the valve stem sits inside that channel. The other end (with the clip) has a ball socket which is where the top of the hydraulic lash adjuster sits. These are mass produced engines and until the cam is installed and torqued down, without that clip holding the rocker arm and lash adjuster together nothing but gravity would be holding everything in alignment. Once the cam is installed the rocker arm can't jump out of place because it can't be lifted high enough to clear the valve stem out of channel or high enough for the other end to slip off the ball socket. The clip holds everything together so someone doesn't have to manually confirm each end of each rocker arm is in the correct position on every engine. Once put together it would be impossible to get that clip out without taking the thing back apart again. And as you say on a stock engine there's probably an almost zero chance of it being an issue.

 

[sk47]

In my opinion with a stock tune there is probably almost 0% chance of this coming off so ford doesn't care about removing. IDK though. It would be nice if they did if its not necessary though and I do wonder how many tuned engine failures have been due to this happening. My car is still running perfect though. Just raced a fast tuned M4 earlier from 50 to like 160 which was literally dead even with my car, no problems still. I do drive my car insanely hard because I only drive for fun so its probably pretty rare that this happens even on tuned cars. Or maybe its common but most people just use stock non magnetic oil plugs and never see the pieces.. IDK.

Hello; Gotta love the approach. OP finds broken metal and ferrous metal hairs on a magnetic drain plug and not only continues to run the car but also races to 160 MPH.
Must admit i was mistaken early on in the thread in that i thought the OP was concerned about the engine after finding such stuff in the oil pan. Shows what a silly ninny I am about these things. I would have already been into the engine.

Any way, carry on. Please keep posting and giving us updates.

 

[coupe3w]

This is purely a guess on my part but I think the issue is at the rpm's his engine reached the valves started floating. If you don't know what that means it's when the valves can't close fast enough to match the speed the engine is turning. That would cause the cam to lose contact with the rocker arm (I have learnt they're really called cam followers). Once that happens the cam lobes start pounding on the follower which most likely creates a weird vibration on the components. The fix for this is stronger valve springs that can close faster, but require more pressure to open. Again this is pure speculation on my part.

Bingo!
And other ones will break also.

 

[Andy13186]

I'll call this an educated guess. If you look at the rocker arm there's one end that has a channel in it, the end of the valve stem sits inside that channel. The other end (with the clip) has a ball socket which is where the top of the hydraulic lash adjuster sits. These are mass produced engines and until the cam is installed and torqued down, without that clip holding the rocker arm and lash adjuster together nothing but gravity would be holding everything in alignment. Once the cam is installed the rocker arm can't jump out of place because it can't be lifted high enough to clear the valve stem out of channel or high enough for the other end to slip off the ball socket. The clip holds everything together so someone doesn't have to manually confirm each end of each rocker arm is in the correct position on every engine. Once put together it would be impossible to get that clip out without taking the thing back apart again. And as you say on a stock engine there's probably an almost zero chance of it being an issue.

So I suppose removing all clips isn't really a valid option? And adding a new clip back in wouldnt be beneficial at all right.

Hello; Gotta love the approach. OP finds broken metal and ferrous metal hairs on a magnetic drain plug and not only continues to run the car but also races to 160 MPH.
Must admit i was mistaken early on in the thread in that i thought the OP was concerned about the engine after finding such stuff in the oil pan. Shows what a silly ninny I am about these things. I would have already been into the engine.

Any way, carry on. Please keep posting and giving us updates.

My shop said they could add a clip back , but if its not necessary and may come off again then that would be pointless and make my motor more dangerous because it could just come off again, and also cost a ton of money. Also my filter looked perfect so I figured its all good for now at least.

Bingo!
And other ones will break also.

I hope they get caught in the oil plug lol like this one. Whats your suggestion? add the clip back in and go back to stock and remove my whipple etc?


For now I plan on just driving like I always do. Next actual update will either be if I have motor issues or next oil change Ill post if there are more pieces on the plug from this next 3k miles of hard driving. I dont think any pieces of these clips could make it up the oil pickup tube, much less through the oil filter.

If my motor does go, ill spend the money I saved here to upgrade to a built motor setup and probably end up with like 1050 rwhp which is insane and relatively pointless but awesome.

 

[sk47]

So I suppose removing all clips isn't really a valid option? And adding a new clip back in wouldnt be beneficial at all right?

My shop said they could add a clip back , but if its not necessary and may come off again then that would be pointless and make my motor more dangerous, and also cost a ton of money. Also my filter looked perfect so I figured its all good for now at least.


I hope they get caught in the oil plug lol like this one. Whats your suggestion? add the clip back in and go back to stock and remove my whipple etc?


For now I plan on just driving like I always do. Next actual update will either be if I have motor issues or next oil change Ill post if there are more pieces on the plug from this next 3k miles of hard driving.

Hello; To be clear I do not have a good grasp on why a part which can be removed and not make any difference is installed from the factory. Generally the bean counters do not allow such on mass produced products.
The clips likely have some sort of function. Perhaps it is as another member wrote that the clips help to smooth out/speed up assembly and save money that way. Guess the idea may be once the rocker assembly is in place the clips do not add any functionality but cannot be removed. Guess that makes some sort of sense.

Been thinking about this some and have an idea. Best guess is revving to top RMS puts stress on the clips and they tend to break. Here is what I suggest. Find a power curve for the engine with torque and HP in a graph form. Look at peak HP and or peak torque. Here is my thinking. Say peak HP comes in at 7500 RPM then falls off after. There is no real point running to 8400 RPM unless you run out of gears to shift into.
If you are turning 8400 RPM just because you like to do so such is a reason to be sure. I do not know why you turn 8400 so often.

I can see why removing the remaining clips will cost some money. The rocker assemblies will have to be removed. Likely air pressure pumped into the cylinder to keep the valves in place. Or the heads removed. I might want to take a look under the rocker arm covers just to see whats up. May find other clip parts still in the rocker arm side of the heads. May see that all the clips are in place, and none are broken which turns the metal bits you found into a different mystery.

There used to be a saying about a forward pass in football. That three things can happen and two are bad. Sort of like that to my thinking with running the engine as is. Of all the possible scenarios I can imagine only one is good. That being all the random broken pieces of metal safely make a way to be collected by the magnet.

As I understand the oil pan may be some sort of composite material and not ferrous metal. I would be tempted to epoxy a strong magnet to the oil pan in hopes more metal would be caught by a strong magnetic field. Of course, i would pull the oil pan if possible, just to have a look.

Anyway good luck and keep up posted.

 

[Andy13186]

My car is whippled heres my dyno from years ago, its been smoothed out with many revisions since and going to e50. I never rev to 8400 on purpose though I shift at 8k ideally

 

[sk47]

My car is whippled heres my dyno from years ago, its been smoothed out with many revisions since and going to e50. I never rev to 8400 on purpose though I shift at 8k ideally

Hello; A better top end curve than I expected. Starts to level off at around 7,000 RPM but does not drop off. So my basic idea is not supported. The engine is still making more power at 8,000. Not sure what to make of the undulations in that last 1000 rpm.

Torque starts to fall off around 6500 RPM. Maybe shift at 7000 to 7500 RPM. Then it should fall back into the meat of the torque curve in the next gear. Just making guesses. Hopefully someone with more experience can chime in.

 

[Cory S]

Hello; A better top end curve than I expected. Starts to level off at around 7,000 RPM but does not drop off. So my basic idea is not supported. The engine is still making more power at 8,000. Not sure what to make of the undulations in that last 1000 rpm.

Torque starts to fall off around 6500 RPM. Maybe shift at 7000 to 7500 RPM. Then it should fall back into the meat of the torque curve in the next gear. Just making guesses. Hopefully someone with more experience can chime in.

Ideal shift point would be 7950-8100 for his 10spd setup based on his graph. Once the car has accelerating beyond about 60mph, TQ becomes less and less needed. The RPM drop on the 10 speed is about 1100- 1200rpm post shift. So the next gear is still near peak HP.

 

[coupe3w]

So I suppose removing all clips isn't really a valid option? And adding a new clip back in wouldnt be beneficial at all right.

My shop said they could add a clip back , but if its not necessary and may come off again then that would be pointless and make my motor more dangerous because it could just come off again, and also cost a ton of money. Also my filter looked perfect so I figured its all good for now at least.


I hope they get caught in the oil plug lol like this one. Whats your suggestion? add the clip back in and go back to stock and remove my whipple etc?


For now I plan on just driving like I always do. Next actual update will either be if I have motor issues or next oil change Ill post if there are more pieces on the plug from this next 3k miles of hard driving. I dont think any pieces of these clips could make it up the oil pickup tube, much less through the oil filter.

If my motor does go, ill spend the money I saved here to upgrade to a built motor setup and probably end up with like 1050 rwhp which is insane and relatively pointless but awesome.

Wouldn't you want to at least remove the remaining clips for now so you don't break any more?

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