Flex Fuel with Boost

[rin5.0]

Is there a vendor/tuner with a kit solution out there to run 91-E85 with a boosted setup yet? Or is still all DIY/Self-Tuning/Research/Testing? I would love to run flex fuel on my Whipple similar to my B58 engine.

I have not been that active and the last time I was reading on the developments of work close to it was with engineermike, Mejohn50, and PCMTec. I've been looking around trying to get caught up and it still seems like there is no solution for the community unless I missed something. Thank you in advance!

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[HKusp]

@engineermike , @mejohn50 are both good resources on this. I believe PCMTec has a kit or at least a list of components to make it happen. There is definitely a way to tune so that the car can learn the ethanol content and adjust accordingly by adding a flex fuel sensor inline and get readings real-time.

 

[rin5.0]

@engineermike , @mejohn50 are both good resources on this. I believe PCMTec has a kit or at least a list of components to make it happen. There is definitely a way to tune so that the car can learn the ethanol content and adjust accordingly by adding a flex fuel sensor inline and get readings real-time.

Good to know! Speaking of readings real-time, I wonder if that can be integrated as a PID/parameter & read through the RTD4 tuner and the app.

 

[mejohn50]

Thanks for the mention @HKusp.

There are several ways to do flex fuel on boosted cars, but your tuner has to support it. I can’t speak for which tuners will or won’t support which style of flex fuel, but there are two ways to do it: Ford’s OEM logic and PCMTEC’s Custom OS logic.

I’ve used both on NA and boosted cars. Both have advantages and disadvantages. I prefer the PCMTEC CAN bus ethanol sensor flex fuel logic, but the OEM logic does work well if calibrated properly.

You have to see what your tuner of choice supports and which direction they point you to for a CAN bus kit if you do the PCMTEC logic. As far as I know, there’s one off the shelf PnP CAN bus flex fuel hardware kit for the PCMTEC logic. I was working on a high end PnP kit a while back, and was even approached about white-labeling it to tuners and parts sellers, but my life situation at the time, and the state of the platform, steered me away. I’ve since shelved the project and have no real drive to move forward with it considering the overall state of parts/tuning on this platform.

If you use the OEM logic, ethanol content can be read with HPT hardware/software. I don’t know specifically how it works with the RTD and app, but I know with an MPVI and VCM Suite on a computer the ethanol content can be read. If you use the PCMTEC CAN bus logic, that’s a different story and it can’t readily be logged using HPT tools.

The bottom line is you have to ask your tuner of choice. There’s still a canyon between what an enthusiast, like me or @engineermike, can do versus what the tuners are willing to do.

 

[rin5.0]

Very helpful information, thank you. A shame there's still a canyon of space, but maybe we'll hopefully see it sometime in the future.

 

[engineermike]

Very helpful information, thank you. A shame there's still a canyon of space, but maybe we'll hopefully see it sometime in the future.

It’s been possible on gen3 for 8 years now. Development has moved on to s650. If the tuners that be don’t offer it now they probably never will.

 

[rin5.0]

It’s been possible on gen3 for 8 years now. Development has moved on to s650. If the tuners that be don’t offer it now they probably never will.

I completely agree, it's just wishful thinking. Do you think development with the Gen 4 Coyote/ECU would be able to trickle down to the Gen 3? Or are the engines/ECU too different?

 

[mejohn50]

I completely agree, it's just wishful thinking. Do you think development with the Gen 4 Coyote/ECU would be able to trickle down to the Gen 3? Or are the engines/ECU too different?

I’m not going to speak to the specifics of some interesting stuff on Gen 4 that could benefit Gen 3 since I didn’t do the leg work on it, but there are for sure things we can learn from the OEM calibration.

It’s up to the tuners to port it to Gen 3 (assuming it works correctly), and I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for that.

In general, I’m with @engineermike that the Gen 3 is no longer going to see any major development work by any of the mainstream tuners anymore.

 

[engineermike]

It’s interesting because s650 did two basic things in the tuning: 1) started using calibration features that were previously available but unused and 2) added new features.

1) Some features that were available on gen3 but unused. Just off hand I’ve learned that s650 uses a CSER idle speed. It will idle at 1250 rpm until cat temps exceed 900 deg. This feature was there in gen3 but zerod. Also s650 uses LSPI load limits to reduce cylinder pressure at low rpm. This was also available in gen3 but unused. I’m certain there are others.

2) Some new features in s650 tuning are, predominantly, the addition of the map sensor. I can’t say for 100% certain but it appears it’s controlled chiefly by speed density and the maf sensors are just for verification. Speed density is more desirable. Also, s650 has a neat feature where you can change shift character as a function of pedal position. You can set it up to use normal firmness at light throttle and drag shifts at wot, for instance. Also, the shift inertia phase has times specified for each segment for each character, rather than just using multipliers for the alt characters.

The barrier to good flex tuning in gen3 seems to be the lack of parameters defined in the tuning software that most tuners use. Fuel line volumes are absolutely necessary, and other missing parameters are useful such as cold start lost fuel as a function of ethanol content. It’s a shame because gen3 works extremely well once properly calibrated for flex, supercharged or not.

 

[horsepower addiction]

I’ve been running flex fuel on a pro charge application with lots of boost for years without any issues, but it is all self tuned. It’s not a problem absolutely easy to do and plenty reliable. I have no problem trusting it to keep my motor safe but getting a tuner to tune it for you is probably gonna be impossible. You’re gonna have to get somebody that knows how to tune it to do it for you or buy the software and do it yourself.
I wish I could tell you yeah this place does it and this guy tunes it but that’s not the case. it’s all one off applications

 

[sadams930]

Wengerd has a true flex fuel tune for FI applications using PCMTEC. Not cheap to get the software license, but after that it will adjust on the fly for what E content your tank has in it. Here's a video of him showing it off -

You'll also need the canflex kit for full integration - https://shoemakerperformance.com/pr...at-5BdySipvAwjdYmxN_A0uNAJCFbp9uCsugiSM8lAoGI

 

[horsepower addiction]

Wengerd has a true flex fuel tune for FI applications using PCMTEC. Not cheap to get the software license, but after that it will adjust on the fly for what E content your tank has in it. Here's a video of him showing it off -

You'll also need the canflex kit for full integration - https://shoemakerperformance.com/pr...at-5BdySipvAwjdYmxN_A0uNAJCFbp9uCsugiSM8lAoGI

It’s not adjusting on its own. He’s adjusting it on the fly. Understand the difference.?

 

[sadams930]

It’s not adjusting on its own. He’s adjusting it on the fly. Understand the difference.?

Hey snarky dumbass, if you took a couple extra seconds to READ the entire post you can't wait to shoot off a sarcastic reply to, you'll notice the next sentence I link THE CANBUS FLEX FUEL KIT which is what you have to install and then the wengerd tune will adjust automatically to what the sensor reads.

UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE?

Jesus Christ you try and help somebody and they are too stupid to even understand the answer.

 

[horsepower addiction]

The PCM tech software is capable of doing the flex fuel I’m just not sure that’s what they’re offering at Wengerd. i could be wrong.

 

[horsepower addiction]

Hey snarky dumbass, if you took a couple extra seconds to READ the entire post you can't wait to shoot off a sarcastic reply to, you'll notice the next sentence I link THE CANBUS FLEX FUEL KIT which is what you have to install and then the wengerd tune will adjust automatically to what the sensor reads.

UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE?

Jesus Christ you try and help somebody and they are too stupid to even understand the answer.

Maybe you need to realize the way something is said may not be the way you took it

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