Engine Exploded need short block~~~right now!

[Juben]

Exactly.... And after talking to Jon from Lund. In my honest opinion I think people need to chill out on their pump gas and e30 tunes. Does e30 help? Fuck yes it does but it's NOT RACE FUEL or straight e85. So you don't have the safety net those two provide. I'm starting to see a trend of pump and e30 cars blowing.

I'm going to add more on this later when I actually have some time, but for now, from what I remember Adam saying, almost all of the blown engines have been on pump gas. He can chime in with more detailed info, but I was thinking almost every failure was on pump. He kept up with quite a bit of info on the blown cars from both here and other sources.

For what it's worth too, I have an August '14 build and mine has been going strong on E30 for 35k-40k of those miles.

[MENTION=19118]Tune+[/MENTION]

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[TheLion]

Regrading knock, as stated above that's the #1 killer of 2.0L and 2.3L EB engines. All of the modifications in the TST optimization thread protect against knock and should be done weather a canned tune or custom as they provide the same safeguards. I'm sure Adam is willing to for go some of those safe guards on certain cars or with certain customers who are trying to set records, but most of us can't afford to buy a new engine just go down the strip 0.1 seconds faster...and Adam's record indicates he does not push those limits on most of his customers cars for good reason, hence why he has a good record.

1. Properly sized intercooler for the target power levels
2. 1 or 2 step colder plugs (NGK, Brisk etc.)
3. Dual Valve Oil Catch Can
4. High quality oil such as Red Line, AMSOIL Sig etc. with low NOAC
5. Run 93 but tune for 91 (especially important for multi-season areas as winter blends are some times a bit diluted)
6. 160F Thermostat (lowers cylinder head temps, mine went for 185~190 average down to 170~175)
7. Step on it periodically to keep those injectors clean

Seems there are two common reasons for knock in modified EB's. Injector related (inadequate flow / stuck injector leaning out cylinder) or too aggressive timing, there's goes the piston!

 

[perfweld]

The stock rods and crank are not the weakest link. It's the pistons, they are cast, not forged. Both the Rods and Crank are forged. While there are certainly more robust and higher quality forged rods for built engines, the factory parts are quite robust and as you state will get you into the low 12's / high 11's without sacrificing reliability. I don't consider a car that lasts 10k miles and then throws a rod to be a reliable performance car, I would expect at least 150k miles for a performance DD assuming proper maintenance. If your not racing it 24/7, I don't see why you couldn't get up to 200k on some. I've seen a few Fox Body V8's with 250k and they were modded but with stock internals. Yes the EB's are running under high boost compared to a NA V8, however the rings, rods and crank are specked to match that and most modern engines have a minimum expected service life of 150k under the most severe operating conditions, many times actual service life well exceeds that.

It would seem a much better idea to buy a built short block for dedicated racing and pushing more than 425 ft-lbs wtq.MAP, LMS and others provide built short blocks capable of supporting up to 600 to 700 whp! BTW, according to LMS and their in-housing test cars, the 2.3L's tend to give out around 425 ft-lbs wtq and roughly 350 whp on average. A 10~15% margin under that should still provide a good service life. So pushing past 380 wtq and 315 whp and you start to increase risk quite a bit of those kinds of failures early on.

Rods will fail form too high power levels (I have yet to see the crank give, so it's probably the most stout component on the bottom end) where as the pistons, wrist pin, bearings or head gasket will typically give out from too aggressive timing (knock or super knock aka LSPI) which seems to be by far the most common failure. Note that many people have bent or broken rods along with the piston failures, however that is a result of the piston failing first.

No one said there was a problem with the crank. Until you have one of these pistons in your hands I wouldn't downplay them too much. As I said if you keep your knock under control, these pistons are tougher then you are assuming. You aint collapsing one of these pins either, I can assure you of that, its a very stout tapered pin, by the looks of it, its one of the last parts of the assembly that's gonna go.

 

[jbailer]

Regarding most failures being on pump gas, I'm sure that's correct but I'm also sure there are MUCH more people on pump gas than 30+ ethanol mixtures. Also, I think it would be safe to say that knock is probably the biggest reason of any engine failures.

Personally I think we saw a reasonable amount of failures as we learned about this new platform. As a community we learned limits over the last few years. I remember at the beginning we were trying to figure what the limits might be and they kept changing. Plus what the weak links were changed, remember when we thought the rods were the weak link? Yeah rods broke but knock will do that to good rods.

I also think many of the failures were owner induced. I think if they had all used custom tunes and it was a pure environment for the tuner, meaning EVERYTHING was reported accurately and all instructions were followed correctly, I believe many of them wouldn't have happened. There are always going to be some mishaps but that's part of the game. I really think many of the tuners represented on this forum are very good and know how to tune safely. I don't think all of us customers are as good at following instructions because we get too carried away.

 

[jbailer]

No one said there was a problem with the crank. Until you have one of these pistons in your hands I wouldn't downplay them too much. As I said if you keep your knock under control, these pistons are tougher then you are assuming. You aint collapsing one of these pins either, I can assure you of that, its a very stout tapered pin, by the looks of it, its one of the last parts of the assembly that's gonna go.

I agree! Although I haven't seen them in person, I've seen a lot of the aftermath and haven't seen a failure with just a hole blown through the piston. I've seen pistons mangled by the rods but again, that's going to happen with knock.

 

[perfweld]

Regarding most failures being on pump gas, I'm sure that's correct but I'm also sure there are MUCH more people on pump gas than 30+ ethanol mixtures. Also, I think it would be safe to say that knock is probably the biggest reason of any engine failures.

Personally I think we saw a reasonable amount of failures as we learned about this new platform. As a community we learned limits over the last few years. I remember at the beginning we were trying to figure what the limits might be and they kept changing. Plus what the weak links were changed, remember when we thought the rods were the weak link? Yeah rods broke but knock will do that to good rods.

I also think many of the failures were owner induced. I think if they had all used custom tunes and it was a pure environment for the tuner, meaning EVERYTHING was reported accurately and all instructions were followed correctly, I believe many of them wouldn't have happened. There are always going to be some mishaps but that's part of the game. I really think many of the tuners represented on this forum are very good and know how to tune safely. I don't think all of us customers are as good at following instructions because we get too carried away.

Your right. Tuners cant babysit the customer, if you have a tune on the edge, if you get a bad batch of fuel the knock count will go up, the computer will do its best to adjust, but its not gonna be happy about it nor will the engine. I look at logs all the time, non stop, im tuned on the edge, my choice though, I like going fast and can afford to break. I have a new engine here now on the floor ready to put in with all the good parts, will crank it up even more. Lund has taught me to look at my logs and be aware of whats going on, priceless info !!!

 

[jbailer]

7. Step on it periodically to keep those injectors clean

Really? I thought with these new high pressure fuel systems that wasn't an issue any more. Is that incorrect?

Seems there are two common reasons for knock in modified EB's. Injector related (inadequate flow / stuck injector leaning out cylinder) or too aggressive timing, there's goes the piston!

I don't recall seeing this as a problem unless someone has gone big turbo, increasing the airflow. From what I've heard our stock HPFP can keep up with anything the stock turbo puts out. Have you heard differently?

 

[jtmat]

Regrading knock, as stated above that's the #1 killer of 2.0L and 2.3L EB engines. All of the modifications in the TST optimization thread protect against knock and should be done weather a canned tune or custom as they provide the same safeguards. I'm sure Adam is willing to for go some of those safe guards on certain cars or with certain customers who are trying to set records, but most of us can't afford to buy a new engine just go down the strip 0.1 seconds faster...and Adam's record indicates he does not push those limits on most of his customers cars for good reason, hence why he has a good record.

1. Properly sized intercooler for the target power levels
2. 1 or 2 step colder plugs (NGK, Brisk etc.)
3. Dual Valve Oil Catch Can
4. High quality oil such as Red Line, AMSOIL Sig etc. with low NOAC
5. Run 93 but tune for 91 (especially important for multi-season areas as winter blends are some times a bit diluted)
6. 160F Thermostat (lowers cylinder head temps, mine went for 185~190 average down to 170~175)
7. Step on it periodically to keep those injectors clean

Seems there are two common reasons for knock in modified EB's. Injector related (inadequate flow / stuck injector leaning out cylinder) or too aggressive timing, there's goes the piston!

Oh, God.. :lol:

 

[Juben]

Really? I thought with these new high pressure fuel systems that wasn't an issue any more. Is that incorrect?



I don't recall seeing this as a problem unless someone has gone big turbo, increasing the airflow. From what I've heard our stock HPFP can keep up with anything the stock turbo puts out. Have you heard differently?

He's referring to carbon buildup on the injectors. They're subject to that given the design of the D.I. system on these cars.

Some people had started having them flow tested on blown FoSTs, and in some cases, the failed cylinder had an injector flow rate that was 20%-30% below the other cylinders. With carbon buildup, problems like irregular spray patterns and reduced fueling capacity become more prevalent.

For instance, the fuel helps to cool the combustion charge as it's being injected. If the fueling capacity is reduced, then cooling will be reduced bringing about a rise in combustion temps and an substantially increased chance of getting detonation or pre-ignition.

 

[PRG3k]

Exactly.... And after talking to Jon from Lund. In my honest opinion I think people need to chill out on their pump gas and e30 tunes. Does e30 help? Fuck yes it does but it's NOT RACE FUEL or straight e85. So you don't have the safety net those two provide. I'm starting to see a trend of pump and e30 cars blowing.

Not sure about that. If you run a good tune, E30 at least has some knock protection over 93, and substantially more than the lower grade fuels. Mine is a Nov '14 build, pre-owned, flogged often and running strong on E30. Ignition corrections almost always in the + except on the very hottest of days. I saw slightly more knock when I was back on pump 93.

I think there are too many people jumping into the E30 pool not fully comprehending things and brain farting at the pump. If you a.) test your source pump beforehand and b.) mix properly on fill ups and c.) have a good tuner you will be fine. Any of these things don't get checked off you could leave yourself exposed to anything. I feel just as safe now on E30 as I ever did on 93, and perhaps a bit more now that its hot out.

Whatever Lund really said that about E30, I'd like to know what led you to that conclusion. Ethanol has been a staple mod and upgrade for the Mazda DISI and Ecoboost engines for some years now. Not sure how many Ecoboosts they have running it.

This is Adam in red vs. a Lund E30 tune.
From the poster:
"2015 Ecoboost Mustang, manual trans, Adam at Tune+ tuning, MAP intercooler, MAP downpipe, MAP intake, E30 fuel, self blended. Factory turbo, catback, everything else. Adam's run in red, 4th gear pull. I usually use 5th gear on the dyno in this car but Adam suggested it's too much load, so we used 4th today. Add 20 or so to these numbers for a 5th gear pull. The blue line is my old Lund E30 tune"

 

[Slow89]

Not sure about that. If you run a good tune, E30 at least has some knock protection over 93, and substantially more than the lower grade fuels. Mine is a Nov '14 build, pre-owned, flogged often and running strong on E30. Ignition corrections almost always in the + except on the very hottest of days. I saw slightly more knock when I was back on pump 93.

I think there are too many people jumping into the E30 pool not fully comprehending things and brain farting at the pump. If you a.) test your source pump beforehand and b.) mix properly on fill ups and c.) have a good tuner you will be fine. Any of these things don't get checked off you could leave yourself exposed to anything. I feel just as safe now on E30 as I ever did on 93, and perhaps a bit more now that its hot out.

Whatever Lund really said that about E30, I'd like to know what led you to that conclusion. Ethanol has been a staple mod and upgrade for the Mazda DISI and Ecoboost engines for some years now. Not sure how many Ecoboosts they have running it.

This is Adam in red vs. a Lund E30 tune.
From the poster:
"2015 Ecoboost Mustang, manual trans, Adam at Tune+ tuning, MAP intercooler, MAP downpipe, MAP intake, E30 fuel, self blended. Factory turbo, catback, everything else. Adam's run in red, 4th gear pull. I usually use 5th gear on the dyno in this car but Adam suggested it's too much load, so we used 4th today. Add 20 or so to these numbers for a 5th gear pull. The blue line is my old Lund E30 tune"

You're forgetting I'm mixing my e85 with 91.... It's only about a point and a half higher than your 93 pump

 

[Slow89]

Also there's a reason you're making more power with an Adam e30 tune. He's pushing the envelope a bit more than Jon is probably comfortable with and for good reason. He truly cares about longevity over peak power when it comes to pump gas, or that's what's I'm getting from him. Now throw some race gas or e85 (with proper secondary) and he will open the flood gates. You guys need to remember this is a 4 banger sledding a 3600-3800 pound vehicle. That's a HUGE amount of load for a 4. If you want it to last over 100k you need to be smart about your pump gas and even your e30 tunes. Want to open it up? Get some REAL race fuel in it.

 

[jbailer]

He's referring to carbon buildup on the injectors. They're subject to that given the design of the D.I. system on these cars.

Some people had started having them flow tested on blown FoSTs, and in some cases, the failed cylinder had an injector flow rate that was 20%-30% below the other cylinders. With carbon buildup, problems like irregular spray patterns and reduced fueling capacity become more prevalent.

For instance, the fuel helps to cool the combustion charge as it's being injected. If the fueling capacity is reduced, then cooling will be reduced bringing about a rise in combustion temps and an substantially increased chance of getting detonation or pre-ignition.

Thanks Justin. I heard about the problem with carbon buildup on the valves, hadn't heard about it on the injectors, great to know! Is there any way to check the flow rate of the injectors with the AP or do you have to take them out and have them bench tested? Are injector cleaners ok, if so any recommendations on a good safe one?

 

[PRG3k]

Also there's a reason you're making more power with an Adam e30 tune. He's pushing the envelope a bit more than Jon is probably comfortable with and for good reason. He truly cares about longevity over peak power when it comes to pump gas, or that's what's I'm getting from him. Now throw some race gas or e85 (with proper secondary) and he will open the flood gates. You guys need to remember this is a 4 banger sledding a 3600-3800 pound vehicle. That's a HUGE amount of load for a 4. If you want it to last over 100k you need to be smart about your pump gas and even your e30 tunes. Want to open it up? Get some REAL race fuel in it.

I agree with some of that. Adam has a lot of strong running E30 cars. As far as longevity goes, only time will tell.

 

[Juben]

Thanks Justin. I heard about the problem with carbon buildup on the valves, hadn't heard about it on the injectors, great to know! Is there any way to check the flow rate of the injectors with the AP or do you have to take them out and have them bench tested? Are injector cleaners ok, if so any recommendations on a good safe one?

Most people don't think about the injectors being in the combustion chamber instead of being in an intake runner. They're subjected to a much harsher environment than they would be within a P.I. system.

Given the high pressure that these injectors operate at, they'd have to be bench tested at a location capable of doing diesel injectors. That's what everyone has been doing that's had them tested. Any shop capable of flow testing and cleaning diesel injectors should be capable of doing these as well. I've said it over and over again, but these engines really are like little gasoline powered diesels, ha.

The only product that I've used for years is the Chevron Techron Concentrate Plus Fuel System Cleaner. The Techron additive package is HIGHLY regarded as one of, if not, the best in the fuel industry and this cleaner has a high concentration of it. It's safe to use with oxygenated fuels and safe for all the various sensors and catalytic converter(s) too. I've used it in all of my EcoBoost vehicles, including the Mustang. (I'll throw a pic up at the bottom of this reply.)

A lot of people don't think of using a fuel system cleaner with these engines because there's no fuel washing over the valves and most cleaners are advertised with clean valves as one of the top benefits offered by them, however, those same people also don't think about the operating environment of the injectors themselves. I've seen them say numerous times that fuel system cleaners "are worthless" because they don't spray through the intake tract, but in lieu of these recent findings with clogged injectors, actually running it through and cleaning the injectors themselves should probably be the most highly regarded consideration.

It's worth noting that some are ordering an additional set of injectors and swapping back and forth. They're changing them out at certain intervals and having the old ones cleaned and flow bench tested. I think they were running about $250'ish for a set with the seals. And it seems like the seals themselves weren't very expensive at all. That might be something else for people to consider as this topic is researched more in depth in the future. I've been keeping an eye on developments.

Edit: I forgot to add that Advance Auto parts does the BOGO on the Techron fuel system cleaner pretty often. It's kind of expensive, so I load up on the BOGO sales when they have them.

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