E85 worth it?

[andrewtac]

With our fuel systems does it matter if there is a little water in it?

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[Basspro302]

The purge valve is always closed when the engine is off. The vent will be closed most of the time engine off. Most cars run a small leak test after a specific drive cycle and key off using the contraction off the fuel and watching the ftp sensor. The vent will very rarely open to the atmosphere key off unless pressure rises significantly over baro. Water contamination in e85 is a non issue. Although if you leave any fuel in a car for years you will have issues including “non-ethanol” fuel.

 

[engineermike]

All E85 comes with some amount of water already in it as ethanol is an aziotrope and you can't get it to more than about 95% ethanol using physical methods and typical pressures.

It may be an aziotrope but the ASTM limit for water in e85 is only 1% max.

And again, you're assuming the tank is sealed and doesn't breathe. I just showed you a thread with the parts components where it vents not only at the tank, but at the purge valve at the rails.

I never said it didn’t breathe. I said it didn’t breathe much (it’s not from the 60’s) and even did the math to show that gulping in 15 gallons’ worth of air could only bring in 1/3 of a teaspoon of water. In addition to not knowing the vacuum and pressure relief setpoints, we also don’t know if ford installed a dessicant on the vacuum breaker, which would lower moisture even more.

 

[Crackerjack17]

I will beat this to death. The thing I don't particularly like about the Fore system is it isn't very daily driver friendly. It has no fuel bucket so you have to keep no less than half a tank of fuel in the car to keep the pumps immersed in fuel, or you risk a starvation situation when cornering, or under hard acceleration. This effectively cuts your fuel capacity in half, which is a no go for me, especially when you already are losing mileage when running ethanol.

People keep saying this, but I can only give you my experience... i have a fore level 4 system running E85. My car makes over 1k to the wheels and I run the tank to almost zero and don't have any issues in normal driving. I don't go wot at super low levels. But I have gone wot a lot at 25-30% fuel remaining according to the ngauge pid on fuel percentage and have never seen starvation. I have a fuel sender to the ngauage and an alarm setup for low fuel pressure. Simply haven't see it.

 

[Crackerjack17]

And, hell yeah e85 is worth it. ZERO knock. Smells good. Makes a ton of power for $3 @ gallon in my area. My car also starts immediately even in 30 degrees. All these videos I see of e85 cars having trouble starting I'm wondering if they don't have adequate fuel prime from the start and the initial pressure is low?

 

[engineermike]

And, hell yeah e85 is worth it. ZERO knock. Smells good. Makes a ton of power for $3 @ gallon in my area. My car also starts immediately even in 30 degrees. All these videos I see of e85 cars having trouble starting I'm wondering if they don't have adequate fuel prime from the start and the initial pressure is low?

I believe it’s in the tuning. My Roush f-150 had all the “vestigial” flex tuning already in there but it was simply turned off by Roush. I turned it on and made very few other changes. During cold start (and all other non-wot times) you wouldn’t even know it has e85 in it. Cold starts are just like a stock vehicle. If ford made this work perfectly on the f-150 then we can make it work on the mustang. Part of the issue, though, is that most tuners use hpt which only gives access to about 2/3 of the parameters needed to copy the smarts from the f-150 into the mustang.

 

[Crackerjack17]

I believe it’s in the tuning. My Roush f-150 had all the “vestigial” flex tuning already in there but it was simply turned off by Roush. I turned it on and made very few other changes. During cold start (and all other non-wot times) you wouldn’t even know it has e85 in it. Cold starts are just like a stock vehicle. If ford made this work perfectly on the f-150 then we can make it work on the mustang. Part of the issue, though, is that most tuners use hpt which only gives access to about 2/3 of the parameters needed to copy the smarts from the f-150 into the mustang.

I wondered. I'm Lund tuned and the car starts and drives better than stock.

 

[Angrey]

People keep saying this, but I can only give you my experience... i have a fore level 4 system running E85. My car makes over 1k to the wheels and I run the tank to almost zero and don't have any issues in normal driving. I don't go wot at super low levels. But I have gone wot a lot at 25-30% fuel remaining according to the ngauge pid on fuel percentage and have never seen starvation. I have a fuel sender to the ngauage and an alarm setup for low fuel pressure. Simply haven't see it.

You may be going lean and not even realizing it. Do it enough times and it's eventually going to create a failure.

Check out the 5:00 mark of this video. Running a "Fore" system.

HOW TO BUILD A 9 SEC DAILY - YouTube

 

[HKusp]

People keep saying this, but I can only give you my experience... i have a fore level 4 system running E85. My car makes over 1k to the wheels and I run the tank to almost zero and don't have any issues in normal driving. I don't go wot at super low levels. But I have gone wot a lot at 25-30% fuel remaining according to the ngauge pid on fuel percentage and have never seen starvation. I have a fuel sender to the ngauage and an alarm setup for low fuel pressure. Simply haven't see it.

I keep saying it because FORE says it. You can do what you want, but when the manufacturer states that they recommend that you don't run it below a half a tank or you risk fuel heating up and starvation to the pumps in spirited driving. I would give some weight to what they are saying.

 

[Angrey]

I keep saying it because FORE says it. You can do what you want, but when the manufacturer states that they recommend that you don't run it below a half a tank or you risk fuel heating up and starvation to the pumps in spirited driving. I would give some weight to what they are saying.

You've probably read my comparison. This is like debating the use of condoms, and inevitably someone chimes in "I've been barebacking random hookers for years and I've never gotten HIV." Just because you haven't blown your motor YET, doesn't mean it's not a risk.

It's like the guys that bounce off the rev limiter. Someone will chime in and say "man, bouncing off the rev limiter is bad for your motor" and there's always someone who swears "man I bounce off the rev limiter every time I shift and I've never broken anything."

The part that kills me about the older fuel systems is that in 1995, most cordless tools were brush style motors. Now, the only stuff you buy with a brush motor is cheap junk. Yet the entire industry is still clinging to Walbro/TI brush style pumps.

 

[andrewtac]

You've probably read my comparison. This is like debating the use of condoms, and inevitably someone chimes in "I've been barebacking random hookers for years and I've never gotten HIV." Just because you haven't blown your motor YET, doesn't mean it's not a risk.

It's like the guys that bounce off the rev limiter. Someone will chime in and say "man, bouncing off the rev limiter is bad for your motor" and there's always someone who swears "man I bounce off the rev limiter every time I shift and I've never broken anything."

The part that kills me about the older fuel systems is that in 1995, most cordless tools were brush style motors. Now, the only stuff you buy with a brush motor is cheap junk. Yet the entire industry is still clinging to Walbro/TI brush style pumps.

I don't think that is quite apples to apples. He was just adding he hasn't seen a problem. I and many others with similar builds have also not seen problems. I do daily, but almost exclusively street drive and get less than a 1/2 tank often, and sometimes even get on it when it is low. Never had an issue. I almost always log when I go wot, never saw an issue. Does that mean it is ok, nope, just like the other guy just sharing what I have seen. Just like all the others that have an issue with the system flogging on it with less than a 1/2 tank share as well. If we want to do what the manufacturer suggests for liability purposes, we wouldn't be discussing aftermarket fuel systems, drag tires on the street, and just about everything else on here.

 

[Angrey]

I don't think that is quite apples to apples. He was just adding he hasn't seen a problem. I and many others with similar builds have also not seen problems. I do daily, but almost exclusively street drive and get less than a 1/2 tank often, and sometimes even get on it when it is low. Never had an issue. I almost always log when I go wot, never saw an issue. Does that mean it is ok, nope, just like the other guy just sharing what I have seen. Just like all the others that have an issue with the system flogging on it with less than a 1/2 tank share as well. If we want to do what the manufacturer suggests for liability purposes, we wouldn't be discussing aftermarket fuel systems, drag tires on the street, and just about everything else on here.

Well, this isn't an OEM saying don't mess with it, it's an aftermarket manufacturer saying, hey, enjoy the product I created with this advisory.

The risk was enough for me to either A) not run low fuel or B) come up with a different solution.

Everyone takes a risk when they flog their car, but when you've invested an assload of money into a build, but more importantly TIME and EFFORT (meaning if the car goes down, it stays down for awhile) it's not worth the risk, especially when it comes to fueling (the biggest risk to a motor).

Everyone's free to establish their own risk profile and maybe nothing happens, but again, is it really worth the risk? Especially now more than ever there are viable alternatives on the market that aren't appreciably more expensive than the old tried and true naked pumps solution.

Do you have to spend extra money on a glass micron filter? Nope. You can probably drive the car with no issues and hear other guys that swear just a normal fuel filter will work. But when/if you get a clogged injector and you fry the motor, it's completely regrettable that you cheaped out on a $100 fuel filter and you're staring at $10k in repairs and 3 months being off the road.

Everything is a risk. Plan and act according to your appetite.

 

[andrewtac]

Well, this isn't an OEM saying don't mess with it, it's an aftermarket manufacturer saying, hey, enjoy the product I created with this advisory.

The risk was enough for me to either A) not run low fuel or B) come up with a different solution.

Everyone takes a risk when they flog their car, but when you've invested an assload of money into a build, but more importantly TIME and EFFORT (meaning if the car goes down, it stays down for awhile) it's not worth the risk, especially when it comes to fueling (the biggest risk to a motor).

Everyone's free to establish their own risk profile and maybe nothing happens, but again, is it really worth the risk? Especially now more than ever there are viable alternatives on the market that aren't appreciably more expensive than the old tried and true naked pumps solution.

Do you have to spend extra money on a glass micron filter? Nope. You can probably drive the car with no issues and hear other guys that swear just a normal fuel filter will work. But when/if you get a clogged injector and you fry the motor, it's completely regrettable that you cheaped out on a $100 fuel filter and you're staring at $10k in repairs and 3 months being off the road.

Everything is a risk. Plan and act according to your appetite.

So I assume you don't drive tires meant for drag racing on the street? Or use any product not recommended for the street on the street. The list is rather long.


I agree completely, develop your own risk and assume all of your own liability. That is kind of my point. I think we are on the same page when it comes to this. The guy was sharing his acual experience, so others can use that experience to determine what risk they want to take. Not something he heard, or something recommended, or something he found on the internet.

Many have used the system, against the manufacturers designed recommendation and had no problems, I am sure some have bad problems; just like anything else.

 

[Angrey]

So I assume you don't drive tires meant for drag racing on the street? Or use any product not recommended for the street on the street. The list is rather long.


I agree completely, develop your own risk and assume all of your own liability. That is kind of my point. I think we are on the same page when it comes to this. The guy was sharing his acual experience, so others can use that experience to determine what risk they want to take. Not something he heard, or something recommended, or something he found on the internet.

Many have used the system, against the manufacturers designed recommendation and had no problems, I am sure some have bad problems; just like anything else.

Tire advisories are so when you sue them, their attorneys can claim they warned you.

You're mixing manufacturers suggestions and yes, I ignore them all the time, with STANDARD, LARGE SCALE things and it also depends on the why of the recommendation.

You can try to equivocate the two, but you know that someone who crafted a custom aftermarket system and someone who's under warranty are two different scenarios.

Hey, it's your car, flog this shit on vapors if it blows your hair back. I literally just showed you a video of a REAL LIVE example of where a Fore System was at the track and went lean on the launch because he was running low fuel. If that's not enough to concern you, then knock it out. It's your car and your wallet.

 

[andrewtac]

Tire advisories are so when you sue them, their attorneys can claim they warned you.

You're mixing manufacturers suggestions and yes, I ignore them all the time, with STANDARD, LARGE SCALE things and it also depends on the why of the recommendation.

You can try to equivocate the two, but you know that someone who crafted a custom aftermarket system and someone who's under warranty are two different scenarios.

Hey, it's your car, flog this shit on vapors if it blows your hair back. I literally just showed you a video of a REAL LIVE example of where a Fore System was at the track and went lean on the launch because he was running low fuel. If that's not enough to concern you, then knock it out. It's your car and your wallet.

I suspect fore being a small company could not assume the risk of the internet fallout if they people were blowing up motors and not warned. it is still a liability. I know why it is a problem, it is not hard to understand and not hard to avoid operating in a manner that is a problem. Don't do passes on low gas, don't sit in stop and go traffic with low gas, don't flog it for long periods with low gas, probably wise to avoid low gas with high oat. I dont daily, my car sits in climate control, and i have 50 to 100 gallons of e85 on hand. It isn't rocket surgery. It works for me, and i know for a fact it works for others. There is still risk, but the probability is closer to zero than one. Same with the vortech, I operate it in cold environment, (this warning is comparable) but only after I came out of a 60 degree garage. I wouldn't let it cold soak then go flog it, just as I won't make a pass with less than 3/4 tank.

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