E85: why aren't more folks running it?

[Reds197]

No offense but you seem to not know exactly how closed loop operation works and the need for quality E85. Yes, the engine will adjust, however, it will only adjust so much. Running full E85 in a car that is tuned for E50 will run dangerously lean at WOT. A good tuner will tell you, if your going to run E85, you need to know the quality of it. Because different percentages of E85 completely changes how the car provides fuel to the engine.

Those are dangerous words telling people that you don't need to know the quality that the engine will adjust for you. Very wrong.

Kris

Read the title it says E85!! I wouldnt waste time on an E50 tune because I dont have enough fuel pump.

E85 runs from E70-E85 at the pump depending on area and season. I know exactly what I am talking about. I run a 13 psi blower car on E-85 and NEVER test fuel. I ran the same set up in a 2013 with the same results. I have a dozen friends that do exactly the same thing!!

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[RSKTAKR]

Read the title it says E85!!

E85 runs from E70-E85 at the pump depending on area and season. I know exactly what I am talking about. I run a 13 psi blower car on E-85 and NEVER test fuel. I ran the same set up in a 2013 with the same results. I have a dozen friends that do exactly the same thing!!

With all that being said, I test the E85 EVERYTIME I fill up right before I do so I know if any changes need to be made to the tune. If everything is within 3% I don't change anything.

 

[kris5597]

Read the title it says E85!! I wouldnt waste time on an E50 tune because I dont have enough fuel pump.

E85 runs from E70-E85 at the pump depending on area and season. I know exactly what I am talking about. I run a 13 psi blower car on E-85 and NEVER test fuel. I ran the same set up in a 2013 with the same results. I have a dozen friends that do exactly the same thing!!

Just because the pump says E85 and may even have the little sticker that says minimum E70, quality will ALWAYS vary on pump gas. You may be singing a different tune if you go to fill up with E85 and it's E30...

If your pumps are consistently pumping out E70-E85 even when tested, then fantastic for you and your dozen's of friends. I may even consider that luck. But for people where the ethanol content will greatly change, (most E85 pumps), then testing is recommended before use. I have personally test E60 in my pumps all the way up to E90. I have talked with various other tuners around the country to where they have tested as low as E30.

Kris

 

[kris5597]

With all that being said, I test the E85 EVERYTIME I fill up right before I do so I know if any changes need to be made to the tune. If everything is within 3% I don't change anything.

You sir, get kudos lol.

Kris

 

[Reds197]

You sir, get kudos lol.

Kris

You are so smart!

How do stock flex fuel vehicles run E85 and never blow up?

 

[RSKTAKR]

You are so smart!

How do stock flex fuel vehicles run E85 and never blow up?

they have a sensor in them that detects how much ethanol is in the fuel and adjusts the ECU for it.

 

[kris5597]

You are so smart!

How do stock flex fuel vehicles run E85 and never blow up?

Jeez, don't have to be rude. I didn't mean offense in my statement, read how it starts. I am correcting your statement so that the wrong information is not provided for people. I am simply here to provide good information, not to offend.

Vehicles that are setup stock for flex fuel have flex fuel sensors. Theses sensors are inline with the fuel system and read the content of ethanol of the fuel being used. The sensors are setup into the ECU that depending on the ethanol content, the ECU will adjust all parameters to accommodate the different quality of fuel. The Mustang DOES NOT have a flex fuel sensor or any way for the ECU to know the ethanol content of fuel the engine is receiving. Therefore, if you are running E85 in a car without a flex fuel sensor, testing at the pump is the way to go.

Kris

 

[BCeagle08]

The issues that if you are going to be switching between 93 and e85 you are really never going to have a completely empty tank and therefore you are always going to have varying degrees of ethanol in your fuel. Not to mention e85 is only "minimum 70% ethanol" and in lots of states the ethanol content is higher in the summer and lower in the winter to compensation for temperature changes (ethanol is horrible in cold weather).

If you have a ECU that is capable of sensing how much ethanol is in the fuel and making the adjustments accordingly, it's great to run an e85 tune... but when your tune is "locked in" to a certain ethanol percentage, it's horribly inconvenient.

 

[RSKTAKR]

The issues that if you are going to be switching between 93 and e85 you are really never going to have a completely empty tank and therefore you are always going to have varying degrees of ethanol in your fuel. Not to mention e85 is only "minimum 70% ethanol" and in lots of states the ethanol content is higher in the summer and lower in the winter to compensation for temperature changes (ethanol is horrible in cold weather).

If you have a ECU that is capable of sensing how much ethanol is in the fuel and making the adjustments accordingly, it's great to run an e85 tune... but when your tune is "locked in" to a certain ethanol percentage, it's horribly inconvenient.

And time consuming for you and your tuner.. which is why I changed over to HPT so I don't have to rely on a tuner and can make those changes myself.

 

[kris5597]

And time consuming for you and your tuner.. which is why I changed over to HPT so I don't have to rely on a tuner and can make those changes myself.

Also, tuning the car yourself, as long as you know what your doing is the reason why your car will always be faster than the other guy. Tuners take into account that people won't be testing E85. So when they tune the car for it, they tune it to make a little more power, depending on the setup. A tuner isn't going to push the envelope in a car where he knows the owner doesn't keep an eye on things or check things, I know I wouldn't, too much liability. Since I tune my own car, check my own fuel, and constantly change my tune when weather conditions change, therefore, my car will and have always been faster.

So back to the OP. Lots of people don't run E85 or any other fuel because they don't understand it.

Kris

 

[dubster99]

Bingo. FI is always on once you upgrade. Slap a supercharger/turbocharger on your car, get it tuned, and for the most part forget about it. Run the same gas all year round without the need of a chemistry set to test your car's juice.

Some people are choosing to buy the Ecoboosts Mustang, not because of price, but because of fuel economy. A GT on E85 would spend a good chunk of its life sitting at one of the very few E85 stations. Oh, and per gallon, that stuff isn't that much cheaper then normal gas, if at all.

So to make up for the limited availability of E85, and the lower gas mileage, you are going to need two tunes. Don't think you are going to just run 93oct through 47lb injectors and call it a day. Have to tune your car to accept the upgraded injectors, and then of course there is a tune for running E85. If you are keen on continuously running E85, I suggest you take multiple fuel storage tanks with you, or prepare to wait for your slow ass SCT-X4 to swap your tunes back and forth.

I've run E85 on two different FI cars, and it is awesome. But, I can completely understand peoples unwillingness to run it because like Rusted said, it can be a chore to maintain.

Where I live, 91 is now in the $3.80/gal range (give or take 10 cents), so e85 at 2.49 is a better deal, even with the worse fuel economy. I just swapped tunes today and filled my first tank of the corn.

As far as e85 content, you should be testing when you get towards and out of winter, and new stations. If you're tuned on e85, you'll be safe down to e70 winter blend. If you're tuned on e70, you'll be lean on e85 and need another tune.

 

[Vile_the_Bastage]

Where I live, 91 is now in the $3.80/gal range (give or take 10 cents), so e85 at 2.49 is a better deal, even with the worse fuel economy. I just swapped tunes today and filled my first tank of the corn.

As far as e85 content, you should be testing when you get towards and out of winter, and new stations. If you're tuned on e85, you'll be safe down to e70 winter blend. If you're tuned on e70, you'll be lean on e85 and need another tune.

That's a good price for your corn juice. I ran E85 in Dallas for a month last year and it wasn't that cheap, so kudos. Still, my STI drink that stuff so fast I could actually see the needle move when I stomped on the throttle. Now granted, I threw a massive turbo on that car, but it was still a 2.5 liter 4 banger. Our V8's will GUZZLE that stuff like a college frat boy during a home game.

 

[Process]

Jeez, don't have to be rude. I didn't mean offense in my statement, read how it starts. I am correcting your statement so that the wrong information is not provided for people. I am simply here to provide good information, not to offend.

Vehicles that are setup stock for flex fuel have flex fuel sensors. Theses sensors are inline with the fuel system and read the content of ethanol of the fuel being used. The sensors are setup into the ECU that depending on the ethanol content, the ECU will adjust all parameters to accommodate the different quality of fuel. The Mustang DOES NOT have a flex fuel sensor or any way for the ECU to know the ethanol content of fuel the engine is receiving. Therefore, if you are running E85 in a car without a flex fuel sensor, testing at the pump is the way to go.

Kris

This is somewhat incorrect. How Ford handles flex fuel is with its widebands. Now on the mustang pcms this isnt enabled but on the F150, which is the same as the Mustang it is.

Essentially when a fuel level increase is detected and the wideband registers a trim outside of the normal, it goes into a few minute learning mode and adjusts stoich and timing based on the ethanol detected from the way the trims go out of reach.

 

[dubster99]

Yeah, I almost went E85 on my 2011 WRX, but sold the car for this one before I got to that point. Plus I didn't want to replace a clutch, etc at that power level. Lucky for me, E85 is sold across the street from where I work (along with 94/96/98/100 at the pump), which is about an 8 mile trip from my house. Worst comes to worst, I'll get a few gas cans for the garage. I've noticed that my mileage in this car isn't far from the Subaru. They get notoriously bad mileage for a small 4 cyl, even without modification.

 

[kris5597]

This is somewhat incorrect. How Ford handles flex fuel is with its widebands. Now on the mustang pcms this isnt enabled but on the F150, which is the same as the Mustang it is.

Essentially when a fuel level increase is detected and the wideband registers a trim outside of the normal, it goes into a few minute learning mode and adjusts stoich and timing based on the ethanol detected from the way the trims go out of reach.

I find this extremely hard to believe. Do you have valid evidence of this?

So if what you saying is true, by enabling "flex fuel" in the tune, you then have to tune the flex fuel parameters that the vehicle will select when seeing a change in fuel trims based on the different ethanol content of fuel being used?

It sounds like a very interesting idea. I would just like to see evidence of this.

Thanks for the post.

Kris

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