Drag Race Showdown: 2020 GT500 vs Challenger Hellcat Redeye vs Camaro ZL1!

[Minn19]

I'm sorry, but most people don't like DSSV dampers and solid bushings. Porsche doesn't do it. BMW doesn't do it. Completely sacrificing ride quality for extra adjust-ability and track performance is just not being done anymore. People want to be able to drive to the track and put their cars in track mode and be done with it....and then put it in comfort mode and drive home. This is what Ford provided. And at the price these cars are demanding, it's to be expected. The market for $75k track cars that ride like shit is extremely small.

Case in point, look at the threads over at C6G forum on how to make their ZLE handle better on the street.

With that said, those that want a race car can buy the mustang GT4.

M3/4 rear sub frame are hard mounted. People complain about that car being too harsh for a DD.

Porsche GT3 etc people complain about being too harsh and not being a good DD.

As you can see some complain about the GT350 being to harsh and not being a good DD.

 

[Laststandard]

I'm sorry, but most people don't like DSSV dampers and solid bushings. Porsche doesn't do it. BMW doesn't do it. Completely sacrificing ride quality for extra adjust-ability and track performance is just not being done anymore. People want to be able to drive to the track and put their cars in track mode and be done with it....and then put it in comfort mode and drive home. This is what Ford provided. And at the price these cars are demanding, it's to be expected. The market for $75k track cars that ride like shit is extremely small.

Case in point, look at the threads over at C6G forum on how to make their ZLE handle better on the street.

With that said, those that want a race car can buy the mustang GT4.

It's a track car. FFS, stop acting like chevy is forcing people into the ZLE. The ZL1, and SS 1LE both exist and come with mag ride. Which, according to most reports, is tuned better than Fords implementation.

The GT3 replaces some rubber bushings with spherical bearings, as well as solid mounting the front and rear cradle vs. rubber bushings on the standard 911. The M4 GTS doesn't use DSSV, or Mag-ride. They have manually adjustable coil-overs.

Of course it's a small market! It's a niche car. GM planned to build 750 ZLEs the first year, ended up making 1500 something? How many GT500 CFTP has Ford said they're making?

 

[Laststandard]

Case in point, look at the threads over at C6G forum on how to make their ZLE handle better on the street.

You must spend more time over there than I do, because I haven't seen those threads.

 

[millhouse]

M3/4 rear sub frame are hard mounted. People complain about that car being too harsh for a DD.

Porsche GT3 etc people complain about being too harsh and not being a good DD.

As you can see some complain about the GT350 being to harsh and not being a good DD.

None of those have hard mounted struts and suspension though either.

And none of those are even on the same planet as how poor the ZLE rides.

 

[millhouse]

It's a track car. FFS, stop acting like chevy is forcing people into the ZLE. The ZL1, and SS 1LE both exist and come with mag ride. Which, according to most reports, is tuned better than Fords implementation.

The GT3 replaces some rubber bushings with spherical bearings, as well as solid mounting the front and rear cradle vs. rubber bushings on the standard 911. The M4 GTS doesn't use DSSV, or Mag-ride. They have manually adjustable coil-overs.

Of course it's a small market! It's a niche car. GM planned to build 750 ZLEs the first year, ended up making 1500 something? How many GT500 CFTP has Ford said they're making?

Interesting. Seems I was wrong. With that said, those cars though don't suffer like the Zle does....according to reviews.

You must spend more time over there than I do, because I haven't seen those threads.

it's been a while. I recall seeing them shortly after the ZLE came out and people started bringing them home.

 

[thill444]

This coming from a former Focus RS owner (those of you that owned or have driven a 16-17 model year know what I am referring to), I thought the ZLE on the same roads I drove my RS on in track or sport mode were just as bad. My C7/Z51 with magride was far more forgiving even in Sport mode and my GT350 is even more forgiving.

I get it some people don't mind stiff and bouncy rides (when the handling and power is so good), but people need to stop reading magazines and go and drive these cars. The roads where I live suck and the whole state is bankrupt (even though I pay way more in taxes here than any other state I have lived). There are roads here that literally look like they were shelled in an artillery barrage after winter, and if we are lucky they patch them before August. I have to live with this everyday and I don't want a car that would just sit in the garage or only get used on track weekends (which for me is about 4 times a year).

I made it clear to my Chevy dealer that they only way I would buy a ZLE was to actually test drive it on some of the roads I drive everyday. They were very hesitant to even allow test drives on a brand new ZLE sitting in the showroom but they finally agreed. I also was able to drive a ZL1 and it was much more forgiving. I would say very close to the GT350.

 

[ZRacerLE]

I feel like I'm going to end up with a cumulative impact brain injury from riding in the Fiesta. If I thought I was invulnerable I could handle the ride - my wife never rides in it, so that part isn't a big deal either.



That is great that you and your wife have no problem with the ride quality! I always thought the GT350 suspension was perfect until I had it on some crappy secondary roads. Ironically I was driving south through MN to go trade it for my Corvette. It was actually a little frightening and quite difficult to control. I considered taking a different route on the way back with the Corvette. When I drove the same roads in the 'vette, I had no problems at all - even though I wasn't familiar with the car and its limits yet.

I think it's different to cheap out like Ford did on the GT350 than it is to build a car that is overly uncomfortable to ride in to make a performance number. I always buy cars knowing that 95% + of my time will be street driving and I want the car to excel at street driving more so than absolutely maximize track performance. But we all have differences on what compromises we will accept. You say I love Fords and yet I only have a crappy little s-box Ford (that I bought used) as my winter driver. I got rid of my GT350. If I loved and trusted Ford excessively I would have never sold it. And I'm not sure whether I will ever buy another new Ford.

So you can think I'm a fan boy. I think I'm just not enough of a Chevy fan boy to satisfy you. I don't say things about the ZL1 1LE because I'm a Ford fan boy. I say those things because that's what I think about the ZL1 1LE.

Those Fiesta STs are very cool little cars. Hate that Ford stopped making the Focus RS. That one is really, really cool.

 

[Hack]

I think you are a Ford fanboy for two reasons. The biggest one is because you have basically said you are in your own posts.

I do like Fords. But I also think I'm reasonable about it. You have seen me write a lot of negative things about Ford cars on here. I just say what I think (other than editing myself to conform to forum rules and to try to be polite to people).

Two, you just complained about Camaro fanboys attacking Mustang owners here etc. Yet, I personally and others here have been on the receiving end of some pretty bad insults. “Too stupid to live without help.” Etc. But, you remain quiet about it because they are on “your team”.

It bugs me that you would say this. I specifically defended you multiple times on this forum. Are you saying I'm a Ford fan boy if I don't defend you every single time you get attacked here?

I really don’t care what you or others say/think about the ZLE. I don’t buy my cars based on what others will think or what badge is on it. You of all people here I thought would know that. I try to talk cars with a few reasonable people on a few different forums. Plus I like to keep up to date what is actually going on with cars I may be interested in in the future.

I think that's great. If you like the ZL1 1LE, awesome. I don't get it, but I don't have any problem with you liking a car. I get having different tastes. Many people probably think I'm crazy for owning and liking a C5.

As you said and I agree, Ford bean counters cheaped out on GT350 on a number of fronts. They could’ve really made the R the most track capable Mustang ever, but they held back due to cost and vanity. I’m curious if they did the same with the GT500.

I think the R really was the most track capable Mustang ever at the time. I think Ford struck a good compromise with it. I was never interested in the GT350 R because it was too hard core for me. Too stiffly sprung, too low to the ground, etc.

You own a C5 Z06 yet use it as an example as to why modern vettes / chevy products are no good. There's plenty of well documented issues with that car but you seem unwilling to fix or deal with any of them. It'd be like me buying a 2005 Mustang and complaining that Mustangs are underpowered and have crappy interiors.

I've been struggling with what should I do with the C5 ever since I bought it. The bottom line for me is - if I easily fit in it with a helmet on I would keep it. I would have to replace/modify the engine significantly, as well as adding cooling for the trans and rear diff. I'd have to upgrade the brakes. I think the chassis is amazing, but that's not enough for me to hang onto it. I am an engine guy and this car helped me to realize that engines are my highest priority.

The reason I complain about the newer Corvettes is that I really wanted to love them. I wanted to go to a car with better weight distribution and a better chassis than the Mustang. I hoped that Corvette was it. I've been looking really hard at Corvettes and there are problems with all the Corvettes I would consider buying. Problems serious enough that I'm probably going to give up on my dream of owning one long term. If I hadn't spent so much time researching, driving, etc. I probably would have nothing to say about them.

Chevy gives you a clear choice - want a track machine? ZL1 1LE. If you don't, get the standard ZL1. I think the GT500 CFTP doesn't go far enough, especially for a 20 grand premium. CF wheels are nice, but do they really matter when most owners swap them out for a forged wheel because they're too afraid of damaging them on the track?

The ZL1 1LE is good, but if you want a hard core track machine you should really be looking at something like an Ariel Atom.

Fixed that for you. I think Ford is more guilty of it than GM.

I don't know about more guilty or this and that, but I agree with you on the PP2 100%. It doesn't make sense to me. I've said on here that I don't really understand the car. The tires are too sticky but it also has no coolers. But people are buying them, so some people want that.

Those Fiesta STs are very cool little cars. Hate that Ford stopped making the Focus RS. That one is really, really cool.

I really wanted an RS but IMO the price was too high and ergonomics weren't good. I wish Ford could make that car but at a more competitive price. I also wish Chevy would offer a small sporty AWD car.

The ST is slow but I actually like it quite a bit. It's fun for winter driving. And last fall I found myself looking at the C5 and ST many mornings and picking the ST over the Z06 almost every time.

 

[kilobravo]

How many GT500 CFTP has Ford said they're making?

1250 for the 2020 MY.

 

[kilobravo]

How many GT500 CFTP has Ford said they're making?

1250 for the 2020 MY.

 

[thill444]

1250 for the 2020 MY.

That's much higher than I thought. I thought it would be well under 1000.

 

[Boss2013]

Because you keep questioning when I say the 1le may beat the CFTP. So that would suggest you believe the CFTP will beat the 1le. Look at all my responses, and I say the 1le might, or may beat the CFTP. The wording after I said that is gt500 wins strip and 1le wins track was more a rhetorical question to Voodoo.

Again, I never made a declarative statement one way or another. Because I questioned your opinion based on disparate data you compiled from various sources does not mean I expect any given outcome.

You, on the other hand, have cleverly made record of the fact that the ZL1 1LE "might" or "could" beat the GT500 CFTP on a given track rather than saying it outright. That way, if the ZL1 1LE does end up losing to the CFTP GT500, you can avoid having to say you were wrong in your opinion and have to hear it from the folks who are adamant in their opinion that the GT500 CFTP will edge out the ZL1 1LE. Of course, if the ZL1 1LE does manage a better time in a direct comparison, I have the feeling you will have no issues calling out those same people for their voiced opinions. (Now that think about it, there is a crackpot on another site that also uses the same terms when posting their opinion....hmmmmm.)

At the end of the day, if such a comparison is conducted by a media outlet (using cars supplied by the manufacturer, bought by the media organization or by private owners) we'll get our answer. Unfortunately, it will be very unlikely they will test them on multiple tracks (i.e. a track with long straights and a more technical layout) with the same setup and drivers, so the debate will continue if they end up very close to each other, one way or another.

 

[Laststandard]

The ZL1 1LE is good, but if you want a hard core track machine you should really be looking at something like an Ariel Atom.

Except the ZLE is a "hard core track machine" with heated / cooled seats, AC, stereo, etc.. There's always X car for a track machine.. but what if I want a RWD V8 with a manual and a warranty? If i wanted a pure track car I would have bought a Miata and a trailer.

if I easily fit in it with a helmet on I would keep it. I would have to replace/modify the engine significantly, as well as adding cooling for the trans and rear diff. I'd have to upgrade the brakes. I think the chassis is amazing, but that's not enough for me to hang onto it. I am an engine guy and this car helped me to realize that engines are my highest priority.

I'd say the GT350 is the car for you, if you want something you can drive off the lot and onto the track and has a special engine. Anything older than these 6th gen pony cars and C6/C7 will likely need cooling and brake upgrades, unless you get into exotic / semi-exotic territory. And then you have maintenance costs. This current push towards track capable cars with all the proper cooling and brakes from the factory is really a very recent development. I think GM with the 5th gen 1LE and Z/28 set a standard for a track capable machine, and raised the bar with the 6th gen SS/1LE and C7 Z51 / grand sport. (or I'm completely wrong about it and there's some other cars I'm forgetting, but I'll gladly take a history lesson if anyone is willing to educate me). Other manufacturers have paid attention and who wins? The consumer.

I know a fair amount of people here are cheering for the Camaro's demise in 2023, but just remember what happened to the Mustang when it had no proper competition.

1250 for the 2020 MY.

So ZLE and CFTP will be pretty comparable in units sold for first MY.

Anywho, I'd say it's a pretty good time to be arguing about a 650hp Camaro vs a 760hp Mustang, both cars that beat up an Euro ones costing many times their price. The days of the V8 are numbered, I'm going to enjoy them while it lasts.

Cheers I'm gonna go drill some holes in lake ice and watch the snow fly.

 

[Minn19]

None of those have hard mounted struts and suspension though either.

And none of those are even on the same planet as how poor the ZLE rides.

Now you just want to argue. They have hard mounted points in their suspensions.

So you’ve had these cars we are discussing and extensive seat time in them? Because the ZLEs ride isn’t to different from my old F80 M3 that was lowered on MPHAS.

Point being as you can tell there are complaints about the ride quality/daily drivability for track focused cars in general.

You don’t want a ZL1, but as has been said, Chevy gives you a very clear choice between them.

 

[Minn19]

It bugs me that you would say this. I specifically defended you multiple times on this forum. Are you saying I'm a Ford fan boy if I don't defend you every single time you get attacked here?

The ZL1 1LE is good, but if you want a hard core track machine you should really be looking at something like an Ariel Atom.

No that is not why I said that, I see it on a lot of forums where somebody is complaining about the behavior of one side and not the the other. From what I can tell neither side here has the moral ground on insults as per usual on forums of any kind. I try to keep it above board, but I’m human.

I to defended you a lot to a bunch of the a holes on the GT350 forum. Whom still defend Ford on a bunch of fronts completely ignoring any issues, which I think is nuts.

I really like the ZLE is as hard core as it is and I still can take my family on day/weekend trips. I’d love an Atom, but as you know not the greatest for MN etc and what I use the car for. I don’t know any other 4 seat manual car that fits the bill for me like the ZLE does.

Any way stay safe in the snow, I’m heading to the North Shore for vacation with a couple of other families. Hopefully no hard feelings, none on my side anyway.