Does the 2.3 have a glass jaw??

[bbrilli]

When u say down shift are you tapping the paddles one down or just downshifting to S?

I push the clutch in and blip the throttle if I am dropping 2 gears. I am more of a road race guy than a drag racer.

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[ultimate warrior]

does Adam, or any other tuner, have an opinion of running something like E25-E27 on a bone stock car to protect against LSPI/det?

 

[Tune+]

does Adam, or any other tuner, have an opinion of running something like E25-E27 on a bone stock car to protect against LSPI/det?

I have customers running E30 all the time, the issue is it isn't octane related really its is just EXTREME load and not enough engine speed to push through. Cylinder pressure overcomes rotational force and it snaps the rod in reaction.

You also mentioned your car keeping stoich fuel as long as possible, that is the what it is supposed to do. It is an economy tune from the factory not a power tune. You have to hit the threshold for Power Demand fueling before it will pull away from stoich fueling. The factory tune the Power Demand fueling threshold is over 1% load and 60% throttle pedal position. I mentioned this in your other thread.

You are chasing an issue that is not an issue. You own a vehicle were this is normal operation and not an issue.

The TRUE issue with the factory tuning is the transmission tables that don't quite down shift without a ton of pedal and it shifts into the next gear too early.

 

[l2frankie]

When you guys say don't WOT in 6 gear with low Rpms, do you guys literally mean smashing the pedal down? In the 5-6 years I have been driving, I have not found any reason to floor it in a high gear/low rpm.

 

[Kjewer1]

Boneheaded driving is only one possible cause, and LSPI still happens in the complete absence of it. Dealers that take in one of these cars with a blown motor (should) pull the data and see what the engine was doing at the time of failure. By definition, LSPI happens at at low RPM and high load, but this can occur at very low throttle angles! One case I was told about the driver was around 20% throttle driving uphill at a normal speed. This is the most common type of LSPI failure according to the techs that deal with it, and the manufacturers that have been studying it for decades.

LSPI is a global phenomenon to all GDI engines. ALL of the major manufacturers are working on figuring out why it happens, and have even combined their efforts. Any tuners that think they can prevent LSPI in the tune when all of the major manufacturers combined have yet to figure it out are blowing smoke up the internets ass. The best a tuner can do is leave particular safety measures in place to avoid making things any worse than a stock car. This can be done, which is good. And keep in mind that LSPI happens on bone stock cars all the time. You see can how much effort the Ford calibrators put into avoiding LSPI just by looking at the measures they put in place within the ECU. But by its nature, it still happens at random.

What I find most interesting is that LSPI is actually a self inflicted wound for the manufacturers, in that the engine is purposely run at low RPM and high load for fuel economy. So this says something about the big push for improving fuel economy. We should all just be driving diesels instead, they take it much better. But the other big push is for lower emissions, and GDI engines could get similar mileage with fewer emissions. We're just left with this pesky LSPI problem.

I'm not an expert on this, just sharing my two cents. Anyone curious about LSPI can look it up in various resources, SAE papers, etc, which can be found on the internet. Your average car forum isn't going to teach you anything meaningful about it if you really want the details. But some forums for other makes are further ahead than others.

 

[Kjewer1]

To clarify, when I say that they try to run these engines like diesels, they purposely run a very small turbo that will make boost at very low RPM. With a larger aftermarket turbo LSPI is avoidable, since you can't make enough load at low enough RPM to be in the danger zone. This would also apply to boneheaded driving as well as the standard random cases of LSPI. You give up the fuel economy that comes with the factory arrangement, but most guys modding the car care less about that and more about keeping their shit together.

Edit> There's also the ability to change the shift strategy with the autos to keep the RPM up, but it takes some effort to get a good balance that isn't too annoying. I have mine where I like it, but there's no way to completely avoid the LSPI danger zone, since it potentially extends up to 2500 rpm or so. My car won't cruise under 15-1600 rpm now. If lower RPM is worse (I don't know that this is the case), this could help somewhat.

 

[Hageln]

To clarify, when I say that they try to run these engines like diesels, they purposely run a very small turbo that will make boost at very low RPM. With a larger aftermarket turbo LSPI is avoidable, since you can't make enough load at low enough RPM to be in the danger zone. This would also apply to boneheaded driving as well as the standard random cases of LSPI. You give up the fuel economy that comes with the factory arrangement, but most guys modding the car care less about that and more about keeping their shit together.

Could you not just tune the car such that the wastegate is active at lower RPMS?

 

[Tune+]

Could you not just tune the car such that the wastegate is active at lower RPMS?

Read my post a page back. I limit my tune in 5th and 6th gear under 2500rpms to 8psi. Where as the factory tune can make up to 20.5psi under 2500rpms with heavy load.

 

[Kjewer1]

You can do your best to keep boost down at the low RPM, but the boost that can cause LSPI can be within the WGA's spring pressure. Not sure if this is the case with Ford motor specifically though. Just like going to a bigger turbo, you can neuter the low end performance, just at the expense of everything Ford thought was so worth it.

Just keeping the motor out of the diesel crusing RPM range and making the downshifts more sensitive to throttle input should go a long way toward reducing the odds, but there will still be cases of LSPI. The only ways to completely avoid LSPI should be to completely avoid the RPM and load range where it happens. This can be done! But it kind of sucks IMO.

And before anyone takes me the wrong way, I love our EBM. It's really grown on me. RWD, turbo 4 cylinder, motor facing the right way, and a robust auto trans are all right up my alley. Not mention it's just a sweet car. People shouldn't let the very low chance of LSPI happening (when you look at the number of motors in service) deter them from enjoying these cars. Do whatever you can to mitigate the problem, accept that it may still happen to a very small percentage of us anyway, and have some fun.

It should also go without saying that a case of LSPI shouldn't automatically reflect poorly on the tuner, since it can happen even bone stock to Ford's calibrators (and every other make), unless they knowingly or unknowingly circumvented the safety measures that are in place. And some tuners will be better than others at finding creative ways to reduce the risk. But the risk will always be there, however low we may get it.

 

[Kjewer1]

Read my post a page back. I limit my tune in 5th and 6th gear under 2500rpms to 8psi. Where as the factory tune can make up to 20.5psi under 2500rpms with heavy load.

Definitely an improvement.

 

[Hageln]

People shouldn't let the very low chance of LSPI happening (when you look at the number of motors in service) deter them from enjoying these cars. Do whatever you can to mitigate the problem, accept that it may still happen to a very small percentage of us anyway, and have some fun.

It should also go without saying that a case of LSPI shouldn't automatically reflect poorly on the tuner, since it can happen even bone stock to Ford's calibrators (and every other make), unless they knowingly or unknowingly circumvented the safety measures that are in place. And some tuners will be better than others at finding creative ways to reduce the risk. But the risk will always be there, however low we may get it.

That's a very expensive risk, though. :(

 

[Brian V]

PAO's

What exactly is Detonating During LSPI ( Stochastic Pre Ignition ) ?

 

[Tune+]

PAO's

What exactly is Detonating During LSPI ( Stochastic Pre Ignition ) ?

There isn't enough engine speed to generate efficient energy to continue rotating in native direction. Cylinder pressures increase and tries to force the engine against it's rotation.

 

[Buhbuhj]

Maybe one of you guys can give me an answer on this. The weather was pretty terrible this morning and I had to drive in slushy ice. Snow mode is really great in these conditions and it definitely helped me out.

What I noticed though, is that when I get slippage it intentionally keeps the rpms low. When the computer kicks in and starts trimming the throttle and shit and I'm doing 1.5k in 3rd is that putting any extra load on the engine? It didn't seem like I ever got boost in those conditions so I'm assuming its perfectly safe but I'm just curious as to how the engine is effected in that mode.

 

[qwkcoupe]

OEM LSPI risk mitigation PCM strategy software updates are deploying for the past couple months... in the 1.0 Ecoboost Fiestas.

http://www.fiestafaction.com/forums/threads/44263-Pinging-Under-Light-Throttle

Looks like Ford is reducing boost and timing in the low rpm high load zone for the 1.0 EB 3-cylinder engines.

Is the software engineering solution replicating over to the newer 2.3 EB PCM strategy?

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