Die hard Manual guys get in here!

[Norm Peterson]

Indeed...I suppose a caveman would probably crush an iPad with a rock too if you dropped one in it's lap.

By the late 1960s I had spent some time trying to get a handle on how ATs worked (I had a couple of things in mind at the time, that I hope I don't find myself having to revisit).

I was also beginning to get a better handle on what I preferred and why. It turned out that for me a few hundred milliseconds saved here and a few hundred more there held no value for me. I never was a drag racer; I've always been from the traditional sports car/corner-carver side. But the basic physics of drag racing never was particularly hard to grasp.


Norm

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[TeeLew]

I do have a question for the kids who drive manual, do you double-clutch any more or is that not needed with the new nanny manual transmissions..?

That's never been necessary on any reasonably modern (within in the last 50-60 years) sychromesh box. It's really only a thing if you're driving a big truck. The only performance people I knew that supported double-clutching was Skip Barber, which was ridiculous in all his little cars. The instructors didn't clutch at all, so the notion that you had to pump the clutch twice per shift is silly, but that's what they taught.

 

[TeeLew]

There is, however, a situation where you still might (and perhaps should) double-clutch an upshift in a synchronized transmission. That would be when it's cold enough for the gear lube to stiffen up enough to cause input shaft revs to drop too far too fast for easy synchronized entry to the next gear (usually the first couple of times going from 1st to 2nd).


Norm

Maybe, I suppose? I don't really drive in cold conditions, so I can't speak to that.

 

[TeeLew]

By the late 1960s I had spent some time trying to get a handle on how ATs worked (I had a couple of things in mind at the time, that I hope I don't find myself having to revisit).

I was also beginning to get a better handle on what I preferred and why. It turned out that for me a few hundred milliseconds saved here and a few hundred more there held no value for me. I never was a drag racer; I've always been from the traditional sports car/corner-carver side. But the basic physics of drag racing never was particularly hard to grasp.


Norm

In the 60's, Jim Hall's Chaparral was the only road race car I'm aware of that used an automatic. It was a very forward thinking car, but not particularly successful on track.

 

[bluebeastsrt]

Of you're using the clutch to drag the engine revs up to match the trans this is true. However a proper downshift should be done by matching the revs and wear should be negligible. Then the, compression of the engine is used to slow the car, not the clutch friction material.

My winter beater has over 100,000mi on the original clutch. I'm not the original owner, but I have put on most of the miles and it has been downshifted all over town for engine braking.

Understood. But the clutch is a ware item in the exact same manner that brake pads are. So any time you can reduce ware. It made sense to do it to me. I do agree with you though that a clutch driven normally should last a long time. I beat the crap out of that little SRT-4. Drag racing it with 5 grand clutch dumps on slicks. And wide open throttle shifts. so I went thru clutches like crazy.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Maybe, I suppose? I don't really drive in cold conditions, so I can't speak to that.

It's something you'd most likely have to find out by encountering the situation. I can tell you that several of the transmissions/transaxles in cars I've owned were much easier to make the first couple of 1-2 upshifts on a morning when overnight temperatures had dipped into the single digits F or a bit lower.

I doubt that anybody teaches that in any driver-ed course. I know that nobody ever told me, I just figured out from double-clutching the downshifts that it couldn't hurt and might actually help. Took just once for my suspicion to be confirmed.

I suppose I could have revved the engine far enough to where it wouldn't have dropped so far, but with shift action being a bit molasses-ey I wouldn't have wanted to run the revs that high on a dead cold engine.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

In the 60's, Jim Hall's Chaparral was the only road race car I'm aware of that used an automatic. It was a very forward thinking car, but not particularly successful on track.

Around the same time over in USAC somebody did a little experimenting with a rather specially-modified Torqueflite, in a car driven by Art Pollard. I guess not hearing much more than that says something about its success as well.


Norm

 

[shogun32]

in cars I've owned were much easier to make the first couple of 1-2 upshifts on a morning when overnight temperatures had dipped into the single digits F or a bit lower

hell, my new F150 with A10 balks the first few shifts from 1-2-3 when it's 26F out. One time it took a full 3 seconds to find 1st from a short coast from Rev and the engine continued to rev higher and higher till all of a sudden I got launched.

 

[sk47]

kids who drive manual, do you double-clutch any more or is that not needed with the new nanny manual transmissions..?

Hello; More modern manual transmissions tend to have pretty good syncronizers but even so these can wear out. I rebuilt a T-10 four speed out of a 1963 Oldsmobile some years ago. New syncros made a big difference.

be fine if you don't slap-shift the shit out of it.

Hello; Yes to this. I like to shift a manual with a fingertip grip if possible. By that I mean moving the shifter with a light touch. Some cars shift easy enough so it is not a problem to do it this way. If the shift mechanisms have good built in stops the quick shifts are not so much damaging.
I also try to not rest my hand on the shift knob or rest a leg against the shift lever when cruising around. My take has been the extra pressure may cause wear on things such as the syncros.

since the 80's have syncronizers so no you don't need to drive it like a truck. Though if you want to double clutch it'll still work great

Hello; Yes to this.

But the clutch is a ware item in the exact same manner that brake pads are.

Hello; Yes to this. When at a stop I try to put the trans in neutral and let the clutch out. This saves not only the clutch but also the throw out bearing. When driving do not ride the clutch. Do not use the clutch to hold the car on a hill.
Back some years ago replacing a clutch was not a bad job. Now it can be a real chore.

 

[Sivi70980]

It's something you'd most likely have to find out by encountering the situation. I can tell you that several of the transmissions/transaxles in cars I've owned were much easier to make the first couple of 1-2 upshifts on a morning when overnight temperatures had dipped into the single digits F or a bit lower.

I doubt that anybody teaches that in any driver-ed course. I know that nobody ever told me, I just figured out from double-clutching the downshifts that it couldn't hurt and might actually help. Took just once for my suspicion to be confirmed.

I suppose I could have revved the engine far enough to where it wouldn't have dropped so far, but with shift action being a bit molasses-ey I wouldn't have wanted to run the revs that high on a dead cold engine.


Norm

I took driver's Ed in 1998 and it was an auto econobox. Taught myself how to drive manual in 2000ish. Been grinding, stalling, jerking, and occasionally shifting smooth ever since. Kidding aside, I always wished driver ed taught more when I took it and I'm sure they teach less now. I almost got side swiped just yesterday by someone changing a lane and then just continuing moving over. Thankfully it was one of those rare occasions where the person behind me wasn't in my trunk already. Was a young driver with a new to them paper license in the back window.

 

[Elp_jc]

do you double-clutch any more or is that not needed with the new nanny manual transmissions..?

As mentioned before, it's not really needed. However, to make sure I never have to rebuild a manual tranny for the life of the car, I always downshift sequentially (with rare exceptions, like on a 'panic' stop), and I do it all the time. And yes, always rev-matching up and down. The car's rev-match feature does it perfectly (and aggressively on downshifts), but you have to up-shift leisurely, to give the engine a chance to drop (it's a little lazy)... but I almost always do it that way, so my clutch should also last a long time. And no, I never use the clutch for anything other than just lauching (mildly), and shifting. Foot never on the clutch pedal unless for shifting or launching. And if I need to get on the gas, I do it until clutch pedal is out. And also hand never on shift lever unless shifting. I'm super clutch friendly. Ha ha.

Here is my A10 shifter. Cheap theft insurance.

Hey, did you put a fake clutch pedal too? Didn't think so. Ha ha. But I bet lazy thieves wouldn't bother with that. Ha ha.

 

[NoVaGT]

I drove a 2020 Corvette yesterday.

Ho.

Lee.

Fuq.

DCTs are amazing. Truly the next step.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I like to shift a manual with a fingertip grip if possible. By that I mean moving the shifter with a light touch.

Much the same here. Minimum-grip minimum-force shifting even out on a road course at an HPDE day. Shifting isn't supposed to be like 'arms day' at the gym.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

I took driver's Ed in 1998 and it was an auto econobox. Taught myself how to drive manual in 2000ish. Been grinding, stalling, jerking, and occasionally shifting smooth ever since. Kidding aside, I always wished driver ed taught more when I took it and I'm sure they teach less now. I almost got side swiped just yesterday by someone changing a lane and then just continuing moving over. Thankfully it was one of those rare occasions where the person behind me wasn't in my trunk already. Was a young driver with a new to them paper license in the back window.

Driver's ed for me was in 1963 and I've learned more about shifting (and driving in general) on my own than I ever got from either my driver-ed instructor or my parents during my practice driving. Constantly paying attention and noticing things from time to time is how that works.

I've spent the last not-quite-50-years consciously trying to get all of my shifting to be as smooth as that of a good automatic. Some days I'm there, some days not so much.


Norm

 

[shogun32]

I've spent the last not-quite-50-years consciously trying to get all of my shifting to be as smooth as that of a good automatic.

I guess the A10 isn't your benchmark. 'cause apparently 'jolts of PAWA!' gives the illusion of speed all the kids keep yammering for...

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