Design Predictability vs. Design Reach

[DBCooper]

Here's an interesting article (from Apr 2012) that addresses the enormity of redesigning an icon like the Mustang.

I'm sure there are those that won't agree with his opinion, but it's a good read anyway.

http://www.autoextremist.com/current/2012/4/17/the-autoextremist.html

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[zerot]

That would be the predictable, expected, inoffensive way to go. A fresh look at Corvette, and nothing more. The kind of car that in two years everyone will be looking at his or her watch, asking, “Uh, what’s next?”

This part I agree with as it relates to the mustang, not so much the vette.

Can you really blame the Vette designers for more evolutionary than revolutionary? It's still a pretty niche product at a niche price. Like the porsche, they have a lot more to lose by offending their traditional base of customers since they're not looking for mainstream appeal and customer turnover in droves will kill them.

Ford can dare to be less predictable and I think the Mustang's design history shows that they have done that. They didn't play it safe with the '79 or '94 and arguably didnt with '05 either since it was such a big change from the previosu generation.

If they are going for revolutionary tho they have to go all the way and not look back. Some half-assed frankenstein mix of both vintage Mustang and modern exotic sports car won't do IMO. I say lose the retro badges and nameplates to go along with the modern design for a change. Redesign the pony (not just more muscle). Give us a few new ones to call classics in 50 years.

 

[S550Boss]

It's a good article, and De Lorenzo always has the guts to write the truth. Kudos to him. And the truth here as he expresses it won't always be accepted by some elements of this group, while others will correctly see it as the only way the Mustang can get ahead of itself and move into the future and the worldwide market (critical for volume, and volume means more profit to reinvest back into the product).

I'm sitting here watching the Continental series race at Indy, and am reminded again how far behind the Mustang has fallen. Sure, there are politics, but the car is also saddled with the crudest chassis of either class int he series. Being given another 500 ROM (up to 8k) didn't make any real difference.

So personally I'm more interested in Engineering Predictability vs. Engineering Reach. The brilliant Coyote engine of just a few years ago isn't enough on it's own anymore. Ford knows it has to put serious world-class effort into the chassis, in the same way they did with the Focus ST to get it as the standout of it's class.

Having "an IRS" isn't enough, it's having "THE IRS" that counts. That means design and then thorough tuning, and I hope the Europeans are very heavily involved with this. They have an excellent reputation in Europe, they have a far more intense competitive landscape there in the Focus and Fiesta classes than we do here with just two entrants (I don't count the Challenger because it's inherently uncompetitive in this area), and they've responded brilliantly again and again over the years.

I hope they have a fleet of Mustang prototypes at the Ford Lommel proving ground in Belgium and are heavily testing them, if not outright running that part of the total effort.

 

[ChuckC]

That would be the predictable, expected, inoffensive way to go. A fresh look at Corvette, and nothing more. The kind of car that in two years everyone will be looking at his or her watch, asking, “Uh, what’s next?”

This part I agree with as it relates to the mustang, not so much the vette.

Can you really blame the Vette designers for more evolutionary than revolutionary? It's still a pretty niche product at a niche price. Like the porsche, they have a lot more to lose by offending their traditional base of customers since they're not looking for mainstream appeal and customer turnover in droves will kill them.

Ford can dare to be less predictable and I think the Mustang's design history shows that they have done that. They didn't play it safe with the '79 or '94 and arguably didnt with '05 either since it was such a big change from the previosu generation.

If they are going for revolutionary tho they have to go all the way and not look back. Some half-assed frankenstein mix of both vintage Mustang and modern exotic sports car won't do IMO. I say lose the retro badges and nameplates to go along with the modern design for a change. Redesign the pony (not just more muscle). Give us a few new ones to call classics in 50 years.

Why is it that every other car out there can be evolutionary in styling, but some think that Mustang has to run away from itself and be revolutionary.

Evolve the look, revolutionize the technology.

 

[chopsui]

I'm sitting here watching the Continental series race at Indy, and am reminded again how far behind the Mustang has fallen. Sure, there are politics, but the car is also saddled with the crudest chassis of either class int he series. Being given another 500 ROM (up to 8k) didn't make any real difference.

Honestly, I don't want to start a flame war but..

Didn't the Mustang just win the Championship a year or two ago? Didn't they just win Daytona this year? How is that possible if the suspension is so bad.

I mean, come on, the 2011 and up have been almost universally praised by every auto journalist that's driven it many if not most explicitly making the point that the SRA isn't that big of a hindrance - especially on a track.

Why, if it's so godawful, did you buy one? I've seen you go overboard about the interior too. It's not great, but it's infinitely better than the 2005-2009 and much better than the SN95. Don't even get me started on the Fox. Not that it should matter much but my previous 2 cars were Audis so it's not like I'm unfamiliar with what a world-class interior looks and feels like.

I guess all this is to say I'm sure most of us - and Ford as well - know the shortcomings and compromises of the S197 but how about a little perspective?

 

[Mike]

I very much hope that ford will do what Chevy did to C7

 

[zerot]

Why is it that every other car out there can be evolutionary in styling, but some think that Mustang has to run away from itself and be revolutionary.

Evolve the look, revolutionize the technology.

The fact is that pony/muscle cars in general have been diving in sales for some time and young people are opting for smaller more efficient and more modern sports cars these days. It's not a problem specific to the Mustang. The two examples I gave, the porsche and vette, dont face this problem. All the pony cars that went retro in this last generation need to reinvent themselves if they want to stay relevant.

I don't think it's about running away from itself at all. The Mustang has been the ultimate survivor by changing and adapting to the times so it's actually part of its DNA. And don't forget that for more years than not in its existence, the Mustang has NOT had its heritage looks.

 

[thePill]

The fact is that pony/muscle cars in general have been diving in sales for some time and young people are opting for smaller more efficient and more modern sports cars these days. It's not a problem specific to the Mustang. The two examples I gave, the porsche and vette, dont face this problem. All the pony cars that went retro in this last generation need to reinvent themselves if they want to stay relevant.

I don't think it's about running away from itself at all. The Mustang has been the ultimate survivor by changing and adapting to the times so it's actually part of its DNA. And don't forget that for more years than not in its existence, the Mustang has NOT had its heritage looks.

In all honesty, the Mustang has never been just a muscle car. It has always been "Right for the times". In the mid 60's, the times called for a sports coupe, late 60's the Camaro dragged the Mustang into the Muscle car (where apparently it stays in some minds.) Early 70's was BIG LUXURY and then the sudden sports compact... which changed to Euro-sports compact. People wanted an evolved Fox body and got one in '94 and again in '99... Retro!!!! Everything needs to be retro... so, we got the 2005... and then back to muscle in 2010...

What now? Fuel is going to kill cheap performance dead... No stopping that. It's time to move up... Like the Corvette did. The Mustang deserves it more so than the Skyline did. While it won't be hard to get a 2015 5.0 $35,000, there will be no other middle class sports coupe. That was the spirit of the original, racing, competing, winning and drawing attention from teams, fans and manufacturers. If anyone thinks Ford Racing is bring the GT350 to Grand Am/ALMS/SCCA/FIA and the Mustang isn't going to be in the "Thoroughbred" direction ... you should probably brace yourselves.

 

[6SPD4ME]

It's a good article, and De Lorenzo always has the guts to write the truth. Kudos to him. And the truth here as he expresses it won't always be accepted by some elements of this group, while others will correctly see it as the only way the Mustang can get ahead of itself and move into the future and the worldwide market (critical for volume, and volume means more profit to reinvest back into the product).

I'm sitting here watching the Continental series race at Indy, and am reminded again how far behind the Mustang has fallen. Sure, there are politics, but the car is also saddled with the crudest chassis of either class int he series. Being given another 500 ROM (up to 8k) didn't make any real difference.

Racing Sanctions typically always favor the latest factory offerings that is why the Mustang has fallen off recently. Even "Old School" RWD Muscle Cars with more modern suspensions can compete handling-wise better than factory 70s stock. That crude chassis as you called it, is still reverent in a 1996-97 Trans AM WS6 that will out handle todays Shelby or Boss in stock configuration.

So personally I'm more interested in Engineering Predictability vs. Engineering Reach. The brilliant Coyote engine of just a few years ago isn't enough on it's own anymore. Ford knows it has to put serious world-class effort into the chassis, in the same way they did with the Focus ST to get it as the standout of it's class.

FWD cars, like the Focus, weight distribution and suspension are quiet different from a RWD V8 setup for chassis tuning. With a properly tuned IRS setup for each drivetrain the driving dynamics for the RWD Mustang will improve the handling characteristics but Drag Racers will cruse it just as they did with the 2003-04 SVT Cobras.

Having "an IRS" isn't enough, it's having "THE IRS" that counts. That means design and then thorough tuning, and I hope the Europeans are very heavily involved with this. They have an excellent reputation in Europe, they have a far more intense competitive landscape there in the Focus and Fiesta classes than we do here with just two entrants (I don't count the Challenger because it's inherently uncompetitive in this area), and they've responded brilliantly again and again over the years.

Don't discount a Challenger SRT on a Road Course, as a friend of mine runs right past all types of Audis when he joins them at Watkins Glen, VIR, South Jersey and Poconos. He is constantly running either the 2nd or 3rd best times without an instructor in his car.

The SRT suspension is made to lower itself on its tires the faster it goes. Part of this is due to the downforce created by the front splitter and ducktail rear spoiler.

I hope they have a fleet of Mustang prototypes at the Ford Lommel proving ground in Belgium and are heavily testing them, if not outright running that part of the total effort.

This has not escaped Ford Engineers. That's why they have restructured their basic chassis worldwide.

 

[StangFX]

Why is it that every other car out there can be evolutionary in styling, but some think that Mustang has to run away from itself and be revolutionary.

Evolve the look, revolutionize the technology.

The Mustang HAS evolved the look. For 10 years now! Isn't it time for something a little different now?

There's been something for everyone and if the next wave of more modern design isn't your cup of tea, you can soon pick up a Boss 302 or GT500 for a discount. like most things retro will probably come back around one day but man am I ready for a change.

 

[thePill]

The Mustang HAS evolved the look. For 10 years now! Isn't it time for something a little different now?

There's been something for everyone and if the next wave of more modern design isn't your cup of tea, you can soon pick up a Boss 302 or GT500 for a discount. like most things retro will probably come back around one day but man am I ready for a change.

I just hope the Camaro doesn't drag the Mustang back into a 3rd Muscle car era. The Mustang should be left to evolve and the first step of evolution is working up the chain. We are all aware now that it takes decades to define a brand. The definition of Mustang initially was a fun and very livable sporty coupe that offered Corvette level performance at higher levels. If it wasn't for the Camaro and the short lived Trans Am, the Mustang would have challenged the Corvette in the early 70's just based on it's merits alone.

Here is Team Camaro's greatest fear... That the Mustang continues to evolve up to the Corvette, even challenging it in Motorsport. Where does that leave the Camaro? Not only in a real tight spot actually beating the Mustang pound for pound and horsepower for horsepower, but the future Camaro risk becoming watered down and a class below the crafty Ford Mustang. Ford merely has to convince car buyers that the cheaper Mustang is "almost" as fast as the Stingray but cost $20-25,000 cheaper. No need convincing blue collar workers and secretaries the 2+2, semi-fastback with 20/30mpg isn't more livable.

Is it possible the C7 and S550 are more cross shopped this round? YEP!!!

I will remind everyone that it is very possible both the Stingray and 5.0 GT are very close in power to weight... That leaves the Camaro with really nothing... Performance would have to be kept soooooooo close to the Corvette that the $35-$40,000 for a base Camaro might be rejected vs. the $60,000 Stingray.

In other words... The class of car some want the Mustang to stay in won't exist. Even so, the class people are considering the S197 and 5th Gen in is not the same '67-'70 Muscle car they are thinking. These large performance cars are getting heavy. Ford is moving the Mustang up on purpose...

It deserves it...

The Camaro will be left behind...

They can begin to cannibalize both the Camaro and Corvette sales...

They can offer people a sports coupe competitive with higher level sports coupes and low level sports cars... There is a market for performance and style... It just doesn't sell well because it's too expensive. Chevy has done to the Stringray what Ford is about to do... Raise the bar...

Ford has a 5.23 million Mustang fan base to advertise to... Believe me, they want to give every single one of those fans a shot at style and performance without losing the house, wife and kids...

 

[KZStang]

I think it's clear the trend is away from muscle cars (and muscle car design) for the Big 3. Ford has signaled as much with pulling factory support for NHRA. There shouldn't be any fear of Camaro dragging the Mustang back into this territory and I think the race is on to get "sportier" quickly. The Mustang will be the first one out of the gate, as usual.

I think the real key is matching the design with the spirit of the car. It's not just about looks. When a car's design lines up perfectly with the way it drives, the way it sounds, the handling: it's a thing of beauty. But when it doesn't, and a car pretends to be something it's not, we get this kind of hot mess:

 

[Norm Peterson]

Why is it that every other car out there can be evolutionary in styling, but some think that Mustang has to run away from itself and be revolutionary.

Evolve the look, revolutionize the technology.

This ↑↑↑ .

I see way too much 'Probe' in that Evos concept. Too much of a transverse-engine FWD look. As a re-interpreted Probe, I'd seriously consider it if that was what I was shopping for.

Doing the Mustang up with a cab-forward look is to relegate its character to sedan-dom in everything but the door count (think Dodge Intrepid only smaller). No thanks. Not a pony car.


Norm

 

[MustangDizzle]

This ↑↑↑ .

I see way too much 'Probe' in that Evos concept. Too much of a transverse-engine FWD look. As a re-interpreted Probe, I'd seriously consider it if that was what I was shopping for.

Doing the Mustang up with a cab-forward look is to relegate its character to sedan-dom in everything but the door count (think Dodge Intrepid only smaller). No thanks. Not a pony car.


Norm

Except that we know the S550 will have proper proportions true to its brand. Every mule and tarped up proto prove that.

 

[GTsquid]

Why would anyone be afraid that the Mustang will get Evos proportions? We'll be lucky to shave off 100lbs and a few inches. Of course the Evos has a FWD look.....it's got almost the same dimensions as the Focus I think except it's much wider (i think by 6 inches) which gives it a stance that makes a lot of people think Mustang rather than what it really is.... a C/D segment car.

I think the only thing to be afraid of is getting exactly the same grille and headlights without any changes. Mustang should be unique. But the Evos has got really state of the art technology, LED's all around, and very forward looking design.

What's not to like?

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