Design Predictability vs. Design Reach

[6SPD4ME]

I just hope the Camaro doesn't drag the Mustang back into a 3rd Muscle car era. The Mustang should be left to evolve and the first step of evolution is working up the chain. We are all aware now that it takes decades to define a brand. The definition of Mustang initially was a fun and very livable sporty coupe that offered Corvette level performance at higher levels. If it wasn't for the Camaro and the short lived Trans Am, the Mustang would have challenged the Corvette in the early 70's just based on it's merits alone.

I'm sorry but your philosophy is flawed concerning this point. Your initial part of a fun and very livable sporty coupe is "correct". The Stang will always be identified this way. It was Carroll Shelby, by way of Iacocca, who made his Shelby G.T. 350 competitive against a basic "King Pin" suspension, that was way dated underneath a sleek design Vette in the 60s. It was easier then because no one used exotic materials, except for fiberglass.

Next up, it was the Pontiac Trans Am which kept the embers for this style of automobile alive from the mid 70s on. Ford only offered the Pinto-based Mustang II. In reality, we have been living with a continued "Mustang III" design evolution since. This info is even found in period books published up into the 90s.

Here is Team Camaro's greatest fear... That the Mustang continues to evolve up to the Corvette, even challenging it in Motorsport. Where does that leave the Camaro? Not only in a real tight spot actually beating the Mustang pound for pound and horsepower for horsepower, but the future Camaro risk becoming watered down and a class below the crafty Ford Mustang. Ford merely has to convince car buyers that the cheaper Mustang is "almost" as fast as the Stingray but cost $20-25,000 cheaper. No need convincing blue collar workers and secretaries the 2+2, semi-fastback with 20/30mpg isn't more livable.

The Mustang "will never" evolve up to a Corvette. It is part of that Muscle Car/Pony Car genre of the market. The automotive press will never let that part go. So, why should (Camaro) or Ford (Mustang). When this niche market has been designed for the last 50 years. It's heritage here that sells these type of cars.

Besides Ford abandon the Sports Car market decades ago. When the T-Bird got a rear seat. They tried again in the 90s, by buying Jaguar and Aston-Martin. We all know were that almost took them.

Is it possible the C7 and S550 are more cross shopped this round? YEP!!!

I will remind everyone that it is very possible both the Stingray and 5.0 GT are very close in power to weight... That leaves the Camaro with really nothing... Performance would have to be kept soooooooo close to the Corvette that the $35-$40,000 for a base Camaro might be rejected vs. the $60,000 Stingray.

The current gen Camaro will be replaced shorty by a Caddy ATS based coupe. The closes the 2015MY Stang will be to the Vette will fall short by 250-300 lbs. While proper suspension setups can dismiss any weight disadvantage.

In other words... The class of car some want the Mustang to stay in won't exist. Even so, the class people are considering the S197 and 5th Gen in is not the same '67-'70 Muscle car they are thinking. These large performance cars are getting heavy. Ford is moving the Mustang up on purpose...

Actually prior to the aluminum 5.4 SC V8, in the Shelby, the base weight for the "Top Dog" Shelby coupe was 3900 lbs-plus and 4,000 lbs for the ragtop. Only those "Big Block" V8s of the '67-'70s period carried the same approximate weight. In addition, the S197 is only 1-inch wider than the 69-70 models.

While all cars have gotten heavier since Y2K.


Another thing, the Mustang (all years to 2014MY) are viewed by Europeans for their American flavor and not by European standards, who want them. And that goes for any American designed Muscle Car! It's the media, in this country, that pushes Foreign cars due to nice paid trips overseas for introductions. Go google the "The List of Worst Cars To Own" and you would be very surprised to find those great magazine write-ups on the list.


... They can offer people a sports coupe competitive with higher level sports coupes and low level sports cars... There is a market for performance and style... It just doesn't sell well because it's too expensive. Chevy has done to the Stringray what Ford is about to do... Raise the bar...

All car manufacturers have raised the bar and will continue to do so because of the instant media age we live in.

Ford has a 5.23 million Mustang fan base to advertise to... Believe me, they want to give every single one of those fans a shot at style and performance without losing the house, wife and kids...

That fan base can erode very quickly. Just look at what happen to Mopar enthusiasts when all they had to buy new was FWD. I had friends that switched to those Fox bodies.

ps ... I'm sorry, if this is a hard pill to swallow!

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[thePill]

I'm sorry but your philosophy is flawed concerning this point. Your initial part of a fun and very livable sporty coupe is "correct". The Stang will always be identified this way. It was Carroll Shelby, by way of Iacocca, who made his Shelby G.T. 350 competitive against a basic "King Pin" suspension, that was way dated underneath a sleek design Vette in the 60s. It was easier then because no one used exotic materials, except for fiberglass.

I have no idea what this means, the GT350 was actually more successful in Motorsports than the Corvette was at the same time period. You are correct though, The Mustang didn't need fiberglass to put out a better season than the Corvette. The Cobra pretty much eliminated the Corvette in it's class.

Next up, it was the Pontiac Trans Am which kept the embers for this style of automobile alive from the mid 70s on. Ford only offered the Pinto-based Mustang II. In reality, we have been living with a continued "Mustang III" design evolution since. This info is even found in period books published up into the 90s. LOL!!! The Trans Am was a 175hp, 3600lb vehicle... That NEVER won a Trans Am championship (or race if I remember correctly). The Mustang evolved to survive, the 70's Camaro was also THE best selling Camaro with it's 165hp SBC 350. Nobody gave a sh!t about the Firebird until Burt Reynolds starred in one.

The Mustang "will never" evolve up to a Corvette. It is part of that Muscle Car/Pony Car genre of the market. The automotive press will never let that part go. So, why should (Camaro) or Ford (Mustang). When this niche market has been designed for the last 50 years. It's heritage here that sells these type of cars.

No, I wouldn't want the Mustang to be a useless sport car for aging men. However, If you don't think Ford is planning to push the performance up to Corvette levels, and still compete with the Stingray in GT, well... I'm not sure what to tell ya'. The automotive press knows nothing or cares nothing about the past... They want a paycheck and will stroke the new guy so they can sell magazines.., Keep reading.

Besides Ford abandon the Sports Car market decades ago. When the T-Bird got a rear seat. They tried again in the 90s, by buying Jaguar and Aston-Martin. We all know were that almost took them.

Ford abandoned the Sports Car market because there is literally NO return. Millions in research and the sell 9000 a year. Ford can do with one car (S550) what Chevy is trying to do with two (and has attempted before and failed).

The current gen Camaro will be replaced shorty by a Caddy ATS based coupe. The closes the 2015MY Stang will be to the Vette will fall short by 250-300 lbs. While proper suspension setups can dismiss any weight disadvantage. Whoa!!! The S550 is going to weight 3650-3700lbs? Because that is 250-300lbs more than the 3444lbs Stingray. I think you have the 6th Gen Camaro confused with the S550. Ford goal was 200lbs, then restated to be a 10% reduction across the board. Don't know about your math, but my math puts the new Mustang really, really close to the Stingray. Now, we add in that little bit of extra horsepower and well... we have a base Mustang GT with a similar power to weight ratio of the Stingray. The Camaro will never tread that close to the Corvette and I know business (and Ford's total hatred for Chevy). They will bring the Mustang very close to the COrvette... It's easy when you don't have a big brother.


Actually prior to the aluminum 5.4 SC V8, in the Shelby, the base weight for the "Top Dog" Shelby coupe was 3900 lbs-plus and 4,000 lbs for the ragtop. Only those "Big Block" V8s of the '67-'70s period carried the same approximate weight. In addition, the S197 is only 1-inch wider than the 69-70 models. Muscle cars are dead, been dead since '70's. The Mustang was originally intended to be just a car... The GT350 was a sports coupe and would have eventually evolved into what it is about to become.

While all cars have gotten heavier since Y2K. Cars have gotten heavier since 1990.


Another thing, the Mustang (all years to 2014MY) are viewed by Europeans for their American flavor and not by European standards, who want them. And that goes for any American designed Muscle Car! It's the media, in this country, that pushes Foreign cars due to nice paid trips overseas for introductions. Go google the "The List of Worst Cars To Own" and you would be very surprised to find those great magazine write-ups on the list. No again, I spent 9 years overseas and trust me, Europeans are laughing at the Corvette and Mustang because of the state of mind Americans are in. It isn't bias, it's an educated analysis of the vehicles we are producing vs. what they make.

I have an idea, lets keep the Mustang in the laughter and listen to an American that has no idea what Europe, America or consumers want. Even consumers don't know what they want until it's out and "OK to sell"



All car manufacturers have raised the bar and will continue to do so because of the instant media age we live in. Media???? Car makers do not rely on media to make improvements... Maybe the Camaro makes changes based on media but a majority lean toward safety, efficiency and profit. The day I see a company doing so (see Chevy) is the day I pull my shares...

Not hard to swallow at all... Even though I really didn't get much out of anything you posted, I found it semi-informative... Speaking of "Hard to Swallow", hows Camaro5? Seems like with all the hate for the 2014 refresh, the ZL1 failure, the 1LE's awful season and the Z28 being design specifically for magazine test and not racing they would have found a better topic other than thePill...

You stated that the Mustang is still in a evolved Mustang II design? Ummm... Okay??? I guess... Ford really cares less about the media's opinion now with 5.27 MILLION Facebook fans. Who gives two shits about Motor Trend's 35,000 subscribers? Media outlets are quickly becoming a thing of the past because Social Media is overwhelming. Nobody cares about making the cover, sure it's nice but by the time the reader gets the magazine (or real facts) Ford has posted on their Social Media sites.

This is why magazines shouldn't dictate your product, mainly because they really don't have that kind of power anymore.

For example, I myself wrote about the 2014 Z28.. My story was picked up by Motor Trend, they did none of the work except asking Al O. the question (Which he had a slightly sober answer to). Media is through and they know this...

Tell Camaro5 I said "Told ya' so!!!" about the Zl1, 3rd year refresh and sales slump, weight issues, Heat soak, Transmission limitations, THE 2013 GT500 they laughed about (not anymore), the Z28 and pretty much everything I ever posted on that site. Soooooo soooooooo stupid... I remember Mr. Wynd fighting me about a 4152lbs ZL1, he said it would weigh the same as a ZL585 (3900lbs). What a bunch of damage controlling idiots. Their too busy doing damage control about the C5 Fest to worry about the Z28 and Chevy's decision to remove it's balls.

 

[6SPD4ME]

Not hard to swallow at all... Even though I really didn't get much out of anything you posted, I found it semi-informative... Speaking of "Hard to Swallow", hows Camaro5? Seems like with all the hate for the 2014 refresh, the ZL1 failure, the 1LE's awful season and the Z28 being design specifically for magazine test and not racing they would have found a better topic other than thePill...

You stated that the Mustang is still in a evolved Mustang II design? Ummm... Okay??? I guess... Ford really cares less about the media's opinion now with 5.27 MILLION Facebook fans. Who gives two shits about Motor Trend's 35,000 subscribers? Media outlets are quickly becoming a thing of the past because Social Media is overwhelming. Nobody cares about making the cover, sure it's nice but by the time the reader gets the magazine (or real facts) Ford has posted on their Social Media sites.

This is why magazines shouldn't dictate your product, mainly because they really don't have that kind of power anymore.

For example, I myself wrote about the 2014 Z28.. My story was picked up by Motor Trend, they did none of the work except asking Al O. the question (Which he had a slightly sober answer to). Media is through and they know this...

Tell Camaro5 I said "Told ya' so!!!" about the Zl1, 3rd year refresh and sales slump, weight issues, Heat soak, Transmission limitations, THE 2013 GT500 they laughed about (not anymore), the Z28 and pretty much everything I ever posted on that site. Soooooo soooooooo stupid... I remember Mr. Wynd fighting me about a 4152lbs ZL1, he said it would weigh the same as a ZL585 (3900lbs). What a bunch of damage controlling idiots. Their too busy doing damage control about the C5 Fest to worry about the Z28 and Chevy's decision to remove it's balls.

I know why you don't have any idea what it means. You are mixing apples and oranges. You first state Mustang/Vette and then elude to Vette/Cobra. I'll agree with the second part, however, you can talk about sponsored racing all you want. It's taking it to the street. As most people I know still look at 1/4-mile ETs because nobody is going to do 200 mph plus in the street. Those numbers are just bragging rights.

You differently have a limited knowledge of cars if you don't know what a "King Pin" suspension is. It was the G.T. 350 that put the Mustang on the performance map. Even Iacocca acknowledged something was needed that's why he approached Shelby.

Yesterday's Boss 302, although a Trans Am car like the Z/28, mainly did battle on the mean streets a 1/4-mile at a time. The sanctioned racing, I believe you refer to, feeds the street version battles. Likewise today.

Yes, that 175hp Pontiac version carried on the pony breed. The Z/28 disappeared after '74 as did the 351 Ram Air. The old Bandit stole the show and the revival began. That is fact. The Mustang II 302 only had 135hp.

Those aging men that you discount nowadays where the ones that keep the Mustang alive in their 20s. Fanning the flame of rebirth for the Mustang instead of FWD Probe plan. Which intern lead to the S197 and soon S550 cars.

If you think the Automotive Press doesn't influence then you like many missed the boat on the Dodge Challenger. The resurrected nameplate isn't a Pony Car. It's a Mid-Size car. Yet, everyone picked up on the hype "The Pony Car Wars Are Back" and refer to that car as one. People are finally getting it and their sales continue to climb.

The problem is the Yuppie parents and their kids bought into the hype because before those non-American cars had any real horsepower, like their USA counterparts of the day, they handled and braked better. Today, the playing field has even out and now is starting to lean back towards American. Even those Scion and Subaru RWD Sports Cars aren't selling like they thought they would.

You say Ford abandon the sports car market due to no return, which was my point too. Yet, you back track and elude to Ford pushing it to Vette levels. That means not affordable to a lot more enthusiasts. Again, the kid on the street doesn't give a hoot about GT Class Racing. So, in the end the performance is controlled by the Bean Counters for price point sales volume. Which the Vette isn't. The Camaro takes care of that business.

When you add horsepower without exotic framework and suspension, a'la 2014MY Vette, the suspension needs to be heavier. That's the reason the ZL1 and GT500 weight are more than a GT or SS. Sure the 5.0 can make the power but just like with those very fast 4.6L V8s before, the body's 1/4-panel will buckle. But that's not Ford's problem!

And this is where the greatest weight reduction in your calculation comes in. Making your figures correct! That was the problem with the floorpans on earlier Fox cars.

That total hatred of Chevy you speak of is mighty thin. Since both are working together on a 10-speed Auto trans, which they will share.

50 horsepower more, 450 in Vette vs. estimated at this time 500 or plus SVT Stang, does not offset weight unless suspension shifts weight correspondingly, plus trans-to-rear gearing is 3.73 or more.

The day of 3.45 1st geared Fox Stangs w/3.08 Factory in the rear won't provide enough multiplication launching a S550. Especially with an IRS. Reference note to the 2003-04 SVT Cobras!

Yes, the Mustang's original intent was just a sporty-looking car but a strange thing happened on the way to the Forum. A term "Muscle Car". The Cougar, Camaro, Firebird, Barracuda and Challenger all got caught up in it. It has never died. Just go to any Cruise Night. Even those Euro Rally cars are there. And not for the Road Course to open up either! Have you gone to the Drag Strip lately???

All cars are evolving, not just your example G.T. 350.

In your 9 years overseas, it's a shame you never made it to an American Muscle Car Rally thru Germany/France/Switzerland. Maybe then you would understand the lure of these cars on the other side of the Atlantic. They unite together under one umbrella group. Unlike over here!

The us vs. them philosophy can best be summed up to google "The List of the Worst Cars to Own". So, continue listening to those wacky Brits program proclaiming European greatness. Just remember which side of the Atlantic their on and what they lost on this side.

It's no wonder your Mustang knowledge is limited, you keep thinking in 360s because I said we're basically on a Mustang III, not II design. You still think of the Mustang as a Pinto based car.

Apparently magazines still do dictate, otherwise SRT wouldn't have introduced the Viper TA shortly after the official Viper testing was published.

I don't know no Camaro5, so you can run your own errands. Congrats on your MT story pumping though. When you say everything you ever posted, I take it you are now BANNED over there???

I'll agree on the ZL1 weight versus the SLP ZL585 car. The added weight factor for the structure changes and suspension difference between the two did the trick. Hey, that goes back to what I said earlier. The heat soaked trans you refer to I believe are the automatics because the Manual is the same as the Shelby and Viper.

So, I understand completely why you didn't get what I said the first time.

 

[thePill]

I know why you don't have any idea what it means. You are mixing apples and oranges.

I stopped reading after "Apples and Oranges"... Go back to Camaro5...

 

[thePill]

I will hit on a few things because I can't let stupidity go...

I know why you don't have any idea what it means. You are mixing apples and oranges. You first state Mustang/Vette and then elude to Vette/Cobra. I'll agree with the second part, however, you can talk about sponsored racing all you want. It's taking it to the street. As most people I know still look at 1/4-mile ETs because nobody is going to do 200 mph plus in the street. Those numbers are just bragging rights.

The Cobra, Vette and Mustang all competed in the SCCA... Once Chevy, Pontiac, Dodge and everyone else came to town, the sports cars were seperated from the Sports coupes... Nobody bitched about the GT350 in a Covette class until it was unfair for some reason. The Camaro dragged the Mustang down a 4 year Muscle Car era and pretty much lost it's identity from there... I'd say 1971. However, that survival became the Mustang's heritage, NOT the 4 years it spent as a Muscle car because Chevy didn't want a 2+2 whoopin' their ass.

You differently have a limited knowledge of cars if you don't know what a "King Pin" suspension is. It was the G.T. 350 that put the Mustang on the performance map. Even Iacocca acknowledged something was needed that's why he approached Shelby.

Hard to read... No, Shelby approached Ford about turning the Mustang into a race car... It was just a 2+2 but became a competitive sports coupe in 1965.

Yesterday's Boss 302, although a Trans Am car like the Z/28, mainly did battle on the mean streets a 1/4-mile at a time. The sanctioned racing, I believe you refer to, feeds the street version battles. Likewise today.

YEP!!! But Chevy can't 1/4 mile anymore. The GT500 has seen to that and Chevy won't class the Z28 with the Boss 302 in ANY organized racing. The Z28 won't be feeding any street battles from it's road racing performance, it has major illegal equipment.

Yes, that 175hp Pontiac version carried on the pony breed. The Z/28 disappeared after '74 as did the 351 Ram Air. The old Bandit stole the show and the revival began. That is fact. The Mustang II 302 only had 135hp.

Yep, and that 175hp Trans Am weighed 3600lbs while the 135hp Mustang II weight 3000... Weight in which the Camaro still carries today. Your giving the 70's Trans Am the "Muscle Car label while it pounded out a 17 second 1/4 mile at 82mph? The Trans Am didn't carry on the Muscle Car, if anything, Burt Reynolds saved the Firebird from the axe. It was on the chopping block several times in the 70's and 80's.

Those aging men that you discount nowadays where the ones that keep the Mustang alive in their 20s. Fanning the flame of rebirth for the Mustang instead of FWD Probe plan. Which intern lead to the S197 and soon S550 cars.

Those men that kept the Mustang alive for the last 50 years are dying of old age (or marriage)... Dead men can't buy Mustang's, that's the purpose of evolving to appeal to a younger crowd.

If you think the Automotive Press doesn't influence then you like many missed the boat on the Dodge Challenger. The resurrected nameplate isn't a Pony Car. It's a Mid-Size car. Yet, everyone picked up on the hype "The Pony Car Wars Are Back" and refer to that car as one. People are finally getting it and their sales continue to climb.

Ummmm... No... Pretty sure the "Pony Car War" and "New Muscle Car Era" were headlines to sell magazines.. In 2002, the media didn't start advertising the Pony Car or Muscle Car until the 2005 came out. They are trying to feed their families... Please, the media has nothing to do with anything... Chevy may rest on every word but that's because that's all they really have right now.

You say Ford abandon the sports car market due to no return, which was my point too. Yet, you back track and elude to Ford pushing it to Vette levels. That means not affordable to a lot more enthusiasts. Again, the kid on the street doesn't give a hoot about GT Class Racing. So, in the end the performance is controlled by the Bean Counters for price point sales volume. Which the Vette isn't. The Camaro takes care of that business.

Back track? Do you see a Ford GT, Cobra Roadster, GT90 or Shelby GR-1 in production right now? No, and you may never see them again. Why, it's cheaper to build from an existing budget, from existing platforms, using existing parts to sell more cars and win more races. A kid on the street can't afford these cars, that's why they don't care about racing...

When you add horsepower without exotic framework and suspension, a'la 2014MY Vette, the suspension needs to be heavier. That's the reason the ZL1 and GT500 weight are more than a GT or SS. Sure the 5.0 can make the power but just like with those very fast 4.6L V8s before, the body's 1/4-panel will buckle. But that's not Ford's problem!

Did you say the quarter panel will buckle????? Are you taking the pot? I have no idea what your trying to say about the ZL1 and GT500 being heavier than the SS and GT... I always thought it was the supercharger, bigger engine, transmission and cooling that made the GT500 200lbs heavier than the GT.

And this is where the greatest weight reduction in your calculation comes in. Making your figures correct! That was the problem with the floorpans on earlier Fox cars.

Getting.... difficult... must.. post... reply. Listen buddy, weight savings comes from downsizing, chassis efficiency and using lighter/stronger materials.

That total hatred of Chevy you speak of is mighty thin. Since both are working together on a 10-speed Auto trans, which they will share.

I'm sure that's going smooth... See Jim Farley for details...

50 horsepower more, 450 in Vette vs. estimated at this time 500 or plus SVT Stang, does not offset weight unless suspension shifts weight correspondingly, plus trans-to-rear gearing is 3.73 or more.

Okay, here we go... The 2014 Stingray weighs 3444lbs and puts out 460hp. IF the next GT (Not GT350 or GT500) loses 200lbs from the current S197's 3620lbs, that gets it pretty close to the Stingrays 3444lbs. Now, I don't expect HP to jump too much before the Direct Injection Coyote is released but, the GT and Stingray could be separated by 40hp and almost even in weight. I don't understand why you think the S550 GT will weigh 3700lbs. The GT350 could get a z28-ish weight reduction, it could be lighter than the Stingray and produce 40-70hp more... That's pretty close to the Stingray bud, waaaaaaaaaaaay too close for the Camaro to follow.

Yes, the Mustang's original intent was just a sporty-looking car but a strange thing happened on the way to the Forum. A term "Muscle Car". The Cougar, Camaro, Firebird, Barracuda and Challenger all got caught up in it. It has never died. Just go to any Cruise Night. Even those Euro Rally cars are there. And not for the Road Course to open up either! Have you gone to the Drag Strip lately???

Muscle cars are DEAD, there is no such thing as an S197 Muscle car. The S197 and 5th Gen are Retro which is basically a Muscle car rip-off because that is what was trending when the developed the car (Like "Muscle Cars were trendy in '67-'71). I live near Pittsburgh International, I have been to a drag strip, with my car built specifically for strip/street. If I told the owner of the tubbed '69 that my 2011 GT was a Muscle car, he would laugh me off the track.

In your 9 years overseas, it's a shame you never made it to an American Muscle Car Rally thru Germany/France/Switzerland. Maybe then you would understand the lure of these cars on the other side of the Atlantic. They unite together under one umbrella group. Unlike over here!

I understand why Europeans want them, because they are rare... Trust me, they are far from impressed with the 0-100km of a 1969 Mach 1.

The us vs. them philosophy can best be summed up to google "The List of the Worst Cars to Own". So, continue listening to those wacky Brits program proclaiming European greatness. Just remember which side of the Atlantic their on and what they lost on this side.

I go to whoever made the car to get info... Again, I don't let the media tell me what to think.

It's no wonder your Mustang knowledge is limited, you keep thinking in 360s because I said we're basically on a Mustang III, not II design. You still think of the Mustang as a Pinto based car.

I am sorry I don't know much about the Mustang III. I can tell you one thing, the S550 program has been called the Mustang III whether in jest or reference. You can't just make shit up and expect me to know what your talking about.

Apparently magazines still do dictate, otherwise SRT wouldn't have introduced the Viper TA shortly after the official Viper testing was published.

Pretty sure SRT had the Viper line-up locked down before any magazines got the first one. They didn't just decide to make another one based on how well the editor liked the car. Are you feeling Okay???

I'll agree on the ZL1 weight versus the SLP ZL585 car. The added weight factor for the structure changes and suspension difference between the two did the trick. Hey, that goes back to what I said earlier. The heat soaked trans you refer to I believe are the automatics because the Manual is the same as the Shelby and Viper.

Oh please baby Jesus, heal this man!!! I'm glad you agree that I was correct on the ZL1 weight issue 3 years ago. The truth is clearer now that Chevy said yeah... it weighs 4200lbs. As for the heat soak, it has nothing to do with the automatic transmission, it has everything to do with the 1.9 liter blower they chose. I warned those morons it was going to be an issue, now look at the fools. Every ZL1 owner is buying a Chiller or porting the blower (most times both). Mlee was a defender of this ZL1... and he is installing a Chiller due to heat soak. Remember the first test at Inde, in 50 degree temps? Strange how that same ZL1, the ZL1 Chevy claims is 3 SECONDS faster than the GT500, can't really manage a dominant victory (even in magazines). Lets get them on the strip as you say and see what happens... The Mustang CHASED the Camaro out of Drag racing and into road racing... where I'm sure Ford is about to meet them again. With a true competitor, not some pooped out, square block of white dog sh@t Chevy is calling a z28. It looks dumb... really dumb...

I don't know no Camaro5, so you can run your own errands. Congrats on your MT story pumping though. When you say everything you ever posted, I take it you are now BANNED over there???

You don't know Camaro5? But yet you referenced their thread "The Pill Is Hard To Swallow" in the end of your first post. Okay...

Camaro5!!! I could smell your sites stench as soon as I clicked on the thread.

 

[KZStang]

This ↑↑↑ .

I see way too much 'Probe' in that Evos concept. Too much of a transverse-engine FWD look. As a re-interpreted Probe, I'd seriously consider it if that was what I was shopping for.

Doing the Mustang up with a cab-forward look is to relegate its character to sedan-dom in everything but the door count (think Dodge Intrepid only smaller). No thanks. Not a pony car.


Norm

I don't think you have to worry about that, Norm. The Evos may be called the Global Design Language but it was actually a backwards approach that Ford took. Ford's future product roadmap (I'd guess stretching about 5 years or so) for production vehicles was already mapped out when the Evos concept was designed. This concept has been said to be merely a reflection of all the aggregate design elements of the production vehicles; it is not meant to be the blueprint upon which all future cars are based.

So if the S550 turns out to share some design elements with the Evos, you will hear many complain that it copied the Evos, when in reality it is likely the other way around.

P.S., can we get this thread back on track?

 

[Norm Peterson]

In all honesty, the Mustang has never been just a muscle car. It has always been "Right for the times". In the mid 60's, the times called for a sports coupe, late 60's the Camaro dragged the Mustang into the Muscle car (where apparently it stays in some minds.) Early 70's was BIG LUXURY and then the sudden sports compact... which changed to Euro-sports compact. People wanted an evolved Fox body and got one in '94 and again in '99... Retro!!!! Everything needs to be retro... so, we got the 2005... and then back to muscle in 2010...

A pony car is a reasonably affordable personal 2+2 coupe with a distinctly U.S. domestic flavor. It is its own class, and that class is not dependent on imported influence for definition. It doesn't matter that specific sub-models have performance stats that could categorize them to some as "muscle".

Everything got big muscle in the late 1960's, so you can't put all the blame on the Camaro (no matter how badly you'd like to). I was working a co-op job at Liberty Mutual back when the 10 lbs/HP "high performance" insurance guidelines first came out . . .

If all you can do is dismiss the '05-'10 with the less-than-one-word and somewhat disparaging description "retro", you either missed or are marginalizing all of the evolved differences between the S197 and the SN95/New Edge that preceded it. The S197 is a better and more useable car in just about any respect you care to mention.

Like it or not, the Mustang still has to compete with the Camaro (there aren't many descendants of the other original ponycars left). Nobody with two good eyes and at least that many conscious brain cells is going to compare a 2+2 Mustang directly against the strictly 2-seat Corvette. Not even if the Camaro was still MIA. Different requirements, different compromise points. It doesn't even matter that a few Mustangs might come off the production line without rear seating, which as I recall was Shelby's tactic to get the original GT350 homologated as a "sports car" for SCCA purposes.

So when the Camaro SS did show up with over 400 HP, Ford's only realistic option was to bulk up the Mustang's (dare I say it) muscle. My point here being that evolution forced by circumstances is still evolution. The alternative of course being rather less pleasant. Necessity shouldn't be used as a slam against the current cars.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

I don't think you have to worry about that, Norm. The Evos may be called the Global Design Language but it was actually a backwards approach that Ford took. Ford's future product roadmap (I'd guess stretching about 5 years or so) for production vehicles was already mapped out when the Evos concept was designed. This concept has been said to be merely a reflection of all the aggregate design elements of the production vehicles; it is not meant to be the blueprint upon which all future cars are based.

So if the S550 turns out to share some design elements with the Evos, you will hear many complain that it copied the Evos, when in reality it is likely the other way around.

I understand that. But to be only a nip here and a tuck there away from that concept would still be riskier for the Mustang than for any of the sedans.

P.S., can we get this thread back on track?

Predictability vs reach . . . geez, sorry for thinking that commenting on the content of the link posted by the OP fit that requirement.


Norm

 

[KZStang]

I understand that. But to be only a nip here and a tuck there away from that concept would still be riskier for the Mustang than for any of the sedans.



Predictability vs reach . . . geez, sorry for thinking that commenting on the content of the link posted by the OP fit that requirement.


Norm

That wasn't directed towards you, Norm. And yes, most any design changes are riskier for the Mustang than the sedans, maybe not as much for Ford's bottom line (anymore) but in the court of public opinion there are few enthusiasts more vocal than the Mustang crowd.

I believe a few things are certain. First, it will be more than a nip and a tuck. In the same interview when explaining the design language of the Evos, Mays reiterated the Mustang will have very little to do with Kinetic. That's not to say some pony car elements are not reflected in the Evos, which I think it does, and possibly vice versa.

I'm also certain that only bad design is truly "risky" even for a car as iconic as the Mustang. It can look very different from the '65/'05 and it will be alright; maybe not for the purists, but when were the bulk of sales ever really dependent on them/us? Judging by the reaction from the Evos, I believe Ford knows it would only risk losing a few to gain many. Throw in a few traditional elements, shore up the proportions, and you have a car that can appeal to the widest possible audience.

 

[thePill]

I don't think you have to worry about that, Norm. The Evos may be called the Global Design Language but it was actually a backwards approach that Ford took. Ford's future product roadmap (I'd guess stretching about 5 years or so) for production vehicles was already mapped out when the Evos concept was designed. This concept has been said to be merely a reflection of all the aggregate design elements of the production vehicles; it is not meant to be the blueprint upon which all future cars are based.

So if the S550 turns out to share some design elements with the Evos, you will hear many complain that it copied the Evos, when in reality it is likely the other way around.

P.S., can we get this thread back on track?

I agree here, it appears Ford's line-up is being influenced by the Mustang. It should be evident that they are saving the best for last... The best of the new design language to finally make that HALO car they have been missing. Sorry about the off-topic stuff, Camaro5 sent an assassin (Ass for short) and I had to deal with it.

A pony car is a reasonably affordable personal 2+2 coupe with a distinctly U.S. domestic flavor. It is its own class, and that class is not dependent on imported influence for definition. It doesn't matter that specific sub-models have performance stats that could categorize them to some as "muscle".

Everything got big muscle in the late 1960's, so you can't put all the blame on the Camaro (no matter how badly you'd like to). I was working a co-op job at Liberty Mutual back when the 10 lbs/HP "high performance" insurance guidelines first came out . . .

If all you can do is dismiss the '05-'10 with the less-than-one-word and somewhat disparaging description "retro", you either missed or are marginalizing all of the evolved differences between the S197 and the SN95/New Edge that preceded it. The S197 is a better and more useable car in just about any respect you care to mention.

Like it or not, the Mustang still has to compete with the Camaro (there aren't many descendants of the other original ponycars left). Nobody with two good eyes and at least that many conscious brain cells is going to compare a 2+2 Mustang directly against the strictly 2-seat Corvette. Not even if the Camaro was still MIA. Different requirements, different compromise points. It doesn't even matter that a few Mustangs might come off the production line without rear seating, which as I recall was Shelby's tactic to get the original GT350 homologated as a "sports car" for SCCA purposes.

So when the Camaro SS did show up with over 400 HP, Ford's only realistic option was to bulk up the Mustang's (dare I say it) muscle. My point here being that evolution forced by circumstances is still evolution. The alternative of course being rather less pleasant. Necessity shouldn't be used as a slam against the current cars.


Norm

In my opinion, the Pony Car is nothing more than a Sports Coupe or at least the '65-'66 was. Once the Camaro showed up in September '66, the '68 turned to Muscle. The Mustang was drawn in by a competitor, it never really had one until 1967. Again, in 2005, the "Pony Car" re-emerges and instantly guns for the BMW M3 although, drivetrain advancements were lacking but that's the budgets fault and the penalty for meeting the $26,000 MSRP the GT had. Now, as you say, the Camaro comes back out in 2010 and what does Ford need to do? Go back to the Muscle that the Camaro is known for. Now, Mustang fans are drawing a conclusion that the '65-'70 and '05-'14 are pretty much what a Mustang is... It is not...

The Mustang has always been right for the times, fun and fairly cheap. Make no mistake, since Dodge started the Retro era, the VW Beetle, T-Bird, Ford GT, Cobra Roadster, GR-1, Boss 302, Cobra Jet, Mach 1, Bullett, Prowler, Viper, PT Crusier, Camaro, Chally and so on came back. You got your Classic Retro and your Muscle Retro but both are retro. Now, retro is done, it's old, boring and everyone got what they wanted.

Ford needs to create a Mustang that gets those S197 owners to convert in the next 5-10 years and that just isn't going to happen with small nudges to the past. Sure, I believe that the '65-'70 era will be the foundation for the Mustang DNA for the rest of it's life but, I expect the S550 will be very, very entertaining to look at.

I know the Camaro won't go away, it just won't be able to chase the Mustang if Ford parks it's performance numbers very close to the Corvette. It's a Chevy dilemma now, not a Pontiac/Chevy rivalry where they had access to different budgets and could make improvements to both Firebird and Camaro at the same time. NO... this is much different...

Here is the issue...

2017 Stingray: 460hp, 3450lbs $61,000 MSRP
2017 Camaro: 450hp, 3600-3700lbs, $37,000 MSRP
2017 Mustang: 460-475hp, 3400-3500lbs $35,000 MSRP

Uh Oh!!! Now the Camaro looks like a better deal than the Stingray... That is not going to happen. The 6th Gen will also be in a constant state of loss vs. the Mustang unless Chevy boost both the Corvette and Camaro's output/performance. Now Ford is working both vehicles and making Chevy spend a lot of money just to silence the hurt feelings... Only to likely be trumped the following year.

NEVER, EVER let you two best products compete with the same competitor... One of those product must play second fiddle and guess which one that will be?

 

[thePill]

Come on Norm... Guess which one will be shuffled back into the deck. The 3400lb, 460-475hp Corvette with a $61-62,000 MSRP or the 3600-3700lb, 450-460hp Camaro with a $38-$39,000 MSRP.

The Mustang doesn't care about a big brother, It is rumored the 5.0 Coyote will be 450-475hp after Direct Injection. In 2017, depending on where it starts, could be nearly identical to the Camaro's MSRP but will likely be a bit lower like usual. The AWD, Turbo V6 ATS weighs 3700lbs and I believe the 6th Gen V8 SS will be between 3600-3700lb. If Ford's goal was met (and I believe it was) we could see a 5.0 GT as low as 3420lbs.

Unless they plan to offer the Stingray and SS at the same output and weight but... Team Corvette will flip their ____ing lids.

 

[Twin Turbo]

It is rumored the 5.0 Coyote will be 450-475hp after Direct Injection.

I'm tryin' to keep up, so forgive me if I've missed it elsewhere...............but I assume that won't happen (DI) for the '15MY? My assumption would be we'll see that at the next ('18MY) refresh?

 

[Norm Peterson]

DI need not wait for a refresh. The Coyote and Roadrunner engines didn't.


Norm

 

[Twin Turbo]

DI need not wait for a refresh. The Coyote and Roadrunner engines didn't.


Norm

Well, Coyote didn't make the 2010MY refresh..........it was late by a year.....but better late than never. That being said, Coyote has been around long enough to possibly warrant a heavy revision (ie DI), especially if S550 isn't going to lose any significant weight (if any).

Most DI rumors have been dismissed to date though, hence me thinking it'll only come for the '18MY refresh

 

[HTownStang]

I never understood why they call the current Mustang retro. It is really the most modern looking Mustang to date IMO. Same with the '14 Camaro. Maybe the 05 was more classic looking but looking at the 13-14, it's not that close.

i think what people are callin retro is actually just plain old Americana design and what ppl afraid of is not that retro will go away but that european design with sloping curves, minimilistic style and no hard edges is going to make the Mustang not recognizable.

American design is loud, bold, in yor face and powerful. I dont see that in the Evos or any of Fords' designs lately. I think Mays and Co have given the european designers too much involvement if turns out looking like i think it might.

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