BBQ tick - another attempt to understand

[gmupatriot]

I really dont know, I actually decided to just drop mine off at the dealer for the rattle and ill let you guys know what they say tomorrow. Probably something minor or possibly a normal characteristic. Mine goes away when warm so I dont think its a big deal.

Car seems to run great when warm.

Thanks. Please keep us posted.

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[D6tse]

This is mine in neutral-

 

[Furiosa GT]

2019 here with a August 2018 build and I have it. Noticed at around 650mi. Seems to do it on cold start but then go away. It is not constant. Like a second or 2 or 3 will go by and then it does it once or more. Sounds like something in the bottom end. Not really sure what I am going to do about it at this point since there really is no fix. I wanted to put a E85 tune and LT headers on this car by next year but now I am afraid to. This sucks that I now have to worry about this car and not enjoy it the way I want to.

 

[socketman]

Ford released a software update today for the 5.0 coyote in pickups. Supposed to change the PWM of the phaser actuator solenoid. Maybe this will carry over to the Mustang ??




Sorry bout my internet ineptness.

 

[D6tse]

2019 here with a August 2018 build and I have it. Noticed at around 650mi. Seems to do it on cold start but then go away. It is not constant. Like a second or 2 or 3 will go by and then it does it once or more. Sounds like something in the bottom end. Not really sure what I am going to do about it at this point since there really is no fix. I wanted to put a E85 tune and LT headers on this car by next year but now I am afraid to. This sucks that I now have to worry about this car and not enjoy it the way I want to.

Exactly

 

[88lx50]

Ford released a software update today for the 5.0 coyote in pickups. Supposed to change the PWM of the phaser actuator solenoid. Maybe this will carry over to the Mustang ??




Sorry bout my internet ineptness.

IDK but that rattle on the F150 sounds worse then what we have.

 

[Condor1970]

My car had that exact same F-150 rattle in that video, and it did sound like a solenoid issue of some sort, not something in the lower end. Sure enough it pretty much went away after the did a relearn for the crankshaft after getting my clutch replaced. I'll toy with it again this morning and see if there's any remnants of it.

 

[TheLion]

Guy's, I've been searching high end oils lately looking for the most ideal oil to use with TriboTEX, CeraTec or Archoil, especially for those that drive their cars hard like I do or have the BBQ tick. By ideal I mean stay in grade viscosity that meet BOTH ACEA A5/B5 and SAE or ISLAC requirements while providing a better HTHS viscosity than the off-the-shelf US fake synthetics. The Euro oil requirements (ACEA) tend to be tougher than Ford's, GM's or any of the US standards regarding viscosity and viscosity stability, specially over the life of the oil. ACEA has some fairly strict standards regarding shearing down.

AMSOIL's 5W-20 does NOT meet ACEA A5/B5 even though it meets or exceeds API, ILSAC and Dexos standards. It's HTHS viscosity is only 2.67 mPa*s, so even new before any fuel dilution or shearing would occur, it does not meet ACEA standard for 5W-20 which requires fresh oil HTHS minimum of 2.9 mPa*s.

Ravenol, the Germany company I discovered when trying to find a good PAO based manual transmission oil for my MT-82 issues that were NOT solved by BG SnycroShiftII, makes a 5W-20 motor oil with extremely ideal base oil properties. It's as expensive as AMSOIL, RedLine or Driven's 5W-20's just for reference, so it's not a cheap off-the-shelf Group III hydro cracked setup, it's a true PAO base oil synthetic.

RedLine seems to be the sole Ester based base oil blend currently available that I know of and provided the best HTHS viscosity of 3.0 mPa*s at 150C. But it's cold temperature pump-ability was the worst of them at 6,000 mPa*'s. So it may be best suited for hot climates / track spec oil. I'm currently trying their 0W-20 in my 2012 Prius C and we'll see how the fuel economy pans out and UOA results after 10k. Prius is also running TriboTEX and my only concern would be the high moly content in RedLine, which doesn't play nice with some types of vapor deposited DLC coats. TriboTEX lists their surface re-conditioner as 100% compatible with all existing oil formulas and even all known additives. Moly has been around as long as ZDDP and it's even used in MC Semi-Syn's new formula that is API SN+ at 200 ppm, so I don't expect any issues between TriboTEX and RedLine's high moly, but I don't believe there is any benefit to be realized from the moly as TriboTEX in concert with ZDDP is taking it's place more or less. But I digress.

ACEA A5/B5 has a HTHS requirement of stay in grade for extended drain intervals of >= 2.9 mPa*s but <=3.5 mPa*s. US requirements for 5W-30's are 2.9 mPa*s and only 2.6 mPa*s for 5W-20's. 2.6 is perfectly fine, but the real issue is shearing and how much these oils can thin out, add in temperature, fuel dilution and they can get pretty thin. Ravenols HTHS is 2.9 mPa*s @ 150C, 8.5 mPa*s at 100C but with a ridiculous pour point of -63C and a cold cranking viscosity of just 3640 mPa*s where RedLine's is around 6,000 (still meets 5W-20 specs of max of 6,600 but barely). RedLine does also meet ACEA A5/B5, but Ravenol has slightly more balanced properties, especially in cold start and it does NOT have any moly based on some UOA's i've seen of their 0W-40 viscosity, so there's no unnecessary additives that increase cost that are useless when running something like TriboTEX.

Ravenols PAO formula is actually a licensed API SN product unlike AMSOIL, RedLine or Driven. So there can be no question about warranty either which is a big plus. It's expensive but has some of the most ideal base oil properties of any of any 5W-20 I've seen for a street car, RedLine might be slightly better for track, but I doubt you could notice the difference and both will provide better protection as off the shelf "fake synthetics" even in 5W-30 viscosity because they are highly resistant to shearing (aka ACEA stay in grade oil specs). They also meet 10k extended drain interval requirements so I see no reason not to run the full 10k like many AMSOIL customers do.

Cost is slightly more than two 5k changes of off the shelf synthetic 5W-20's, but the stay in grade viscosity will likely shear down less over 10k than the cheaper stuff will over two 5k intervals based on the UOA's I've seen. Mobil 1's old 5W-20 formulas were shearing down by 20% after just 5k miles....MC was shearing down around 10%~15%, Valvoline around 5% to 10% etc. That's one area where AMSOIL does perform well, it doesn't shear down much if at all and any viscosity loss is likely due to minor fuel dilution and worst I saw was 9%. I'm not sure how the newer formulas fare, but I'd wager they are somewhat close to the performance of formulas of just 5 or 6 years ago as it's unlikely the base stock's have improved if at all. I would suspect that most of the changes occurred in the additive packages to combat LSPI for TDI applications.

Starting out with a HTHS of 2.9 mPa*s, if your viscosity loss due to fuel dilution was so extreme as to see a 10% viscosity loss by 10,000 miles, you'd be at 2.61 HTHS which is nearly on par for NEW AMSOIL SS 5W-20 (2.67 HTHS). But PAO's generally have little to no shear at all because you don't use much, if any VI's, Ester's are even better yet in that area and probably the best suited for heavy track use while PAO's are a little more balanced (have better low temp performance).

 

[Condor1970]

^^^ So, what about QSUD 5w20? If you stick to a 5k OCI, wouldn't that be just as good, since it has such a high shear strength? It had a slight high temp breakdown in RAT 540's testing, but not nearly as bad as Mobil 1.

 

[TheLion]

https://www.amazon.com/RAVENOL-J1A1504-SAE-5W-20-Motor/dp/B00EWJUH08

I just ordered some Ravenol (will return the RedLine 5W-20) and we'll see how it performs in my 2016 along side TriboTEX DLC coating which has been in for 4k miles now. That way I can gauge to some degree how Ester's and PAO's play with TriboTEX as both cars are treated for over 4k miles each now, so it's well coated.

Ravenol 5W-20 Specifications

 

[Condor1970]

https://www.amazon.com/RAVENOL-J1A1504-SAE-5W-20-Motor/dp/B00EWJUH08

I just ordered some Ravenol (will return the RedLine 5W-20) and we'll see how it performs in my 2016 along side TriboTEX DLC coating which has been in for 4k miles now. That way I can gauge to some degree how Ester's and PAO's play with TriboTEX as both cars are treated for over 4k miles each now, so it's well coated.

Ravenol 5W-20 Specifications

Did you have any ticking before you did the Tribotex?

 

[TheLion]

^^^ So, what about QSUD 5w20? If you stick to a 5k OCI, wouldn't that be just as good, since it has such a high shear strength? It had a slight high temp breakdown in RAT 540's testing, but not nearly as bad as Mobil 1.

QSUD and PUP are more of a Group III+ than a Group III as I believe both are GTL, I know for a fact PUP is GTL, but not sure 100% about QSUD. Penzoil and Quaker State are both owned by the same people but with slightly different additive packages and I do know PUP performs well at resisting shear in the 5.0, at least out to 5k. But AMSOIL also showed almost no shearing over many 10k intervals. So either buy a cheap oil twice and two filters or buy an expensive one once and one filter. Cost is about the same.

Here's the thing however, for 5W-20's we want to have HTHS viscosity closer to the upper limits in a high powered V8 revved to the moon and back. With non-true synthetics or even Group III+'s, typically a thinner viscosity at 100C also means a thinner viscosity at 150C. PAO's and Esters buck that trend as they are quite a bit more temp stable. PUP doesn't publish their HTHS viscosity, but it does have a decent viscosity of 8.8 at 100C, so HTHS is probably around 2.6 to 2.7 mPa*s. Nothing special and about average. Minimum HTHS for 5W-20's based on ILSAC, API or Dexos is 2.6, but ACEA A5/B5 is 2.9. 12% higher viscosity (aka film strength / thickness), so a notable amount.

QSUD's 100C viscosity is thinner than PUP's at only 8.41 and neither publish their HTHS viscosity. Generally if the 100C viscosity is lower, so is the HTHS viscosity which doesn't look to be in QSUD's favor. I don't think it's going to outperform PUP, which is the gold standard in terms of shear for off the shelf synthetics and the one I'd go back to if I return to them.

I ran PUP for 5k and didn't notice and increase in noise over the change interval (as in the car didn't indicate any thinning going on by increased clatter). Not so with Mobil 1, at 5k my perception currently based on mechanical clatter is that it is thinning out, same thing with the M1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-20 in my Prius C, by 10k it was getting clanky with the M1.

I just put RedLine 0W-20 in the Prius a few days ago, so much smoother and quieter with RedLine, but due to the increased viscosity with RedLine's 0W-20 fuel economy is down a bit. We'll see how it goes over 10k in that little 1.5L hybrid. Driving it is pretty enjoyable for a hybrid because it just glides along smoothly now instead of clattering and shaking it's away along which I attribute to the substantially higher film strength of the Ester base oil in RedLine.

So in a nut shell I'd recommend sticking with PUP in the 5.0 if you want off-the-shelf oils as it's a somewhat known good quantity in terms of wear and shear from UOA's in the 5.0 or if you want better protection going with a PAO or Ester base oil. For street cars, PAO's seem to be a little better balanced, but for track cars Ester's rule with the best HTHS viscosity of their grade.

 

[TheLion]

Did you have any ticking before you did the Tribotex?

Yah, I was on my own list with a very mild form of BBQ tick prior to TriboTEX. I have not heard it since TriboTEX. But it still does have a bit of a very mild top end tick or knock when the oil gets hot which TriboTEX did not seem to help eliminate. I don't believe at this point any of my noises are abnormal even if bothersome and they have occured on MC Semi-syn, PUP and M1 both before and after TriboTEX.

I cannot hear them unless I'm parked next to something and with the windows down / no music on. Otherwise they cannot be heard at all if any one of those variables change and only at idle or low RPM when in neutral. My BBQ tick occurred only at starting from a stop in 1st or 2nd gear, once the car got moving it couldn't be heard any longer.

I can say this, TriboTEX made a big difference in fuel economy and responsiveness. I just got 29 miles per gallon again yesterday in 29F weather cruising at 75 MPH over a known stretch of highway. Before TriboTEX the best I could manage was 25 to 26 mpg over that same stretch. It made a big difference in the response of the engine as well, it revvs so freely and quickly compared to before and I'd estimate top end power has increased a bit as well, maybe 10 up to 20 hp peak (hard to tell on butt dyno). But that would fall in line with the marked increases in fuel economy due to friction reduction. Less friction losses = better fuel economy + more power to the wheels. You converting more chemical energy into mechanical energy instead of thermal energy (waste heat).

There are quite a few dynos with CeraTec showing similar gains in fuel economy and power, I've seen two legitimate TriboTEX dynoes (one V6 in a 2014 S197 and one 5.3L Chevy Small block from 80's). Typically 3% to 5% in newer engines, but in some older V8's up to 9% or 10% in extreme cases where it's also compensating for wear losses as well as enhancing efficiency. The more losses, the more you can regain and DOHC high revving V8's like the 5.0 and especially the Voodoo 5.2 have substantial friction losses compared to the LT1 6.2 or Hemi 392's with half the valve train and lower average operating RPM. TriboTEX really shines in these engines.

 

[TheLion]

And just for reference, MoS2 has shown in Tribology International submitted research papers to play nice with ZDDP. It reduces friction losses that ZDDP does not without negatively affecting the anti-wear properties of ZDDP. However, other than TriboTEX's statements of it being compatible with all commercial oil formulas and all known additives, I have not found any official documentation showing testing of Synthetic MSH (TriboTEX) with MoS2 and ZDDP, I only have documented testing of TriboTEX with ZDDP at this point. Waiting to hear back from TriboTEX on it's comparability with MoS2.

RedLine contains a substantial 600 ppm does of MoDTC (aka it decomposes into MoS2) and ZDDP (1100 ppm) while most commercial oils only contain a scant 50 to 100 ppm of MoDTC. However Motorcraft's new SN+ formula now quadrupled their MoDTC content to 200 ppm. So Motorcraft Semi-Syn 5W-20 has about 200 ppm of MoDTC now based on a few F-150 UOA's I've seen with the new SN+ formula.

TriboTEX also has a synergistic function with ZDDP just like MoS2 and they work well together. ZDDP provides enhanced anti-wear for TriboTEX while it's forming the film since DLC's take hundreds if not thousands of mile to fully form. ZDDP then fills in the gaps of the porous MSH DCL film once the MSH film forms fully and provides additional anti-wear, probably how TriboTEX lasts 40k, because there is still some ZDDP being sacrificially used up, but it's not 100% reliant on ZDDP for ant-wear and they "share the load".

However MoS2 may compete with TriboTEX and while I have no evidence it will have negative impacts (such as increasing friction or wear rates), I don't believe MSH and MoS2 will show any added benefits when combined. I did not add any MoS2 or any other additives. I have only used TriboTEX, but some oils do contain MoS2 with RedLine being the highest content. One additive is going to more or less not be utilized, making it a useless additive, so if your paying more for an oil with MoS2 and your considering using TriboTEX your wasting your money. I didn't realize RedLine had so much Moly in it before I purchased it and didn't discover that until after I changed the Prius oil, so I"ll use up what's in there then likely settle on Ravenol's PAO formula with AMSOIL being a good second choice for 10k intervals with no shearing issues.

That's why I'm going to try Ravenol's 5W-20 in the Mustang while running RedLine in the Prius as it's already in there. Going to return the RedLine 5W-20 I was going to run in the Mustang and instead run Ravenol and see how that goes. It has no MoS2 at all, so there's no unnecessary additive competing with TriboTEX.

Both RedLine 0W-20 and Ravenol 5W-20 have a 2.9 HTHS viscosity and both should be "stay in grade" as both are listed to comply with ACEA A5/B5. However Ravenol is actually licensed API SN where RedLine is not licensed API even though it technically meets API SN specifications. Prius is out warranty (100k+) while the Mustang is in warranty at only 3 years, 25k miles (has a 100k / 7 year extended power train warranty), so licensed API is important to me. We'll see how it goes for both cars in 10k with UOA's / noise perception.

 

[Condor1970]

Wait....No Moly in Ravenol? That would be good, since I use Ceratec, and I hear Moly interfere's with the HnBoron for some reason.

Maybe I should order a couple jugs of that Ravenol. They have 2 listed on Amazon right now. One for $43, and the other $55. They both look like the same 5w20?

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