BAP vs DW400

[vanquishvzla]

Run both… I got the dw400 first and a few experienced Ess supercharger users recommended to add the bap too… so i got the bap too.


so…..

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[Jjmoberg]

Im gonna run both. At this point is just a question of FuelMax vs FuelMax EZ. Will probably do the regular to keep to keep it at 18v max and have it wired to throttle position.

 

[Andy13186]

I did vortech 18v constant bap with my dw400, no problems and good results at 770 rwhp on e50 with whipple rails and id1050x. May be 17.5 constant idk. It works though.

 

[Angrey]

To answer your questions:

1) As others have pointed out, not all "boost a pumps" are equal. Most are constant boost, meaning you're taking whatever the factory FPDM is putting out and boosting the voltage constantly. There are variable units on the market (JMS mainly, but i think some of the older ones too) that can be setup to be partially variable, the JMS has the capability to be indexed in several different ways, through pedal position voltage, using a hobbs switch, etc. There are some debates about the pros and cons of this, but the JMS unit gives you pretty wide flexibility to vary the voltage boost so you're not constantly overspinning the pump(s).

2) Although the BAP itself rarely fails, YES, if you're constantly boosting a brush style pump, not only is it harder on the electric motor in the pump (more wear/tear) but you run the risk of thermal shock much more. Some simple self constrained behaviors (like not filling the car up when the pumps are hot and heat soaked and then flogging it after, will help to reduce the risk of premature failure. Again, this is where constant boosters are a bit limited, you don't get much choice (although one COULD run an operable manual switch, but now you're introducing the risk of human error into your system). Bottom line is that pumps inside the casing don't like to be hot and expanded and then have the sudden rush of cooler fuel to shrink the casing. In summary, if you're running a constant booster, yes, you do increase the likelihood the pumps will tap out sooner than they normally would.

3) A BAP is pretty much a bandaid for the bigger issue of an undersized fuel system. The RIGHT way to do it would be to increase the capacity of the fuel system (and provide a return style). If you rarely beat on the car and it only ever sees WOT rips occasionally and the BAP is indexed (say to a hobbs switch) then it's probably going to add less failure risk. If you like to flog the car a lot and you're running constant voltage boost, it's probably more risk. Bottom line, the most robust and safest option (albeit most expensive) is to increase and improve the entire system.

4) OE pumps and TI doesn't recommend that you provide more than 13.6V. Some aftermarket pump manufacturers (like DW) have tested their pumps and have guidelines for boosting (usually as 18V continuous or 22V intermittent, etc).

5) The rest of the system gets a vote. The factory fuel lines are essentially the equivalent of a 6 AN feed line (no return). This means the pumps will have to work harder to deliver the desired flow and pressure at the rails than they would if you run a larger feed line (8 AN or 10AN). There's a friction loss through the lines themselves and every fitting which results in a pressure drop of a few PSI. That means if you need 70 psi of pressure at the rails, the pumps are having to provide 70+ psi of flow in order to get past the losses to the rails. The higher the flow at the rails, the more an undersized feed line becomes a strain on the pumps.

6) Lastly, of ALL the areas to skimp or go cheap, fuel should be the LAST one on the list. As lean conditions present one of the largest threats (if not the largest threat) to catastrophic outcomes for your motor. If you skimp on axles and you break one, assuming you're launching on a sticky drag strip, it's generally not that big of a deal. You wrecker the car home or to a shop and you swap the axles. If you skimp on other areas, the damage and carnage can be more expensive and collateral damages come into play. If you break a drive shaft for instance, it can beat up the underside of the car. Point is, if your fuel system fails, chances are, it's not going to be some minor cost or damage. It has the potential and likelihood to be very costly. This issue is amplified in post covid era where the car may be down for a significant length of time due to parts availability, etc.

My recommendation is to just bite the bullet and spend the money to give yourself a reliable fuel setup and don't cut corners. Sure you'll always have the guys that come in and say "I've been running 850 hp on the stock lines and pumps with a booster for years with no problems." What you don't see are the guys who smoked their stuff. They rarely chime in.

Fast, cheap, reliable. Pick any two.

 

[Jjmoberg]

To answer your questions:

1) As others have pointed out, not all "boost a pumps" are equal. Most are constant boost, meaning you're taking whatever the factory FPDM is putting out and boosting the voltage constantly. There are variable units on the market (JMS mainly, but i think some of the older ones too) that can be setup to be partially variable, the JMS has the capability to be indexed in several different ways, through pedal position voltage, using a hobbs switch, etc. There are some debates about the pros and cons of this, but the JMS unit gives you pretty wide flexibility to vary the voltage boost so you're not constantly overspinning the pump(s).

2) Although the BAP itself rarely fails, YES, if you're constantly boosting a brush style pump, not only is it harder on the electric motor in the pump (more wear/tear) but you run the risk of thermal shock much more. Some simple self constrained behaviors (like not filling the car up when the pumps are hot and heat soaked and then flogging it after, will help to reduce the risk of premature failure. Again, this is where constant boosters are a bit limited, you don't get much choice (although one COULD run an operable manual switch, but now you're introducing the risk of human error into your system). Bottom line is that pumps inside the casing don't like to be hot and expanded and then have the sudden rush of cooler fuel to shrink the casing. In summary, if you're running a constant booster, yes, you do increase the likelihood the pumps will tap out sooner than they normally would.

3) A BAP is pretty much a bandaid for the bigger issue of an undersized fuel system. The RIGHT way to do it would be to increase the capacity of the fuel system (and provide a return style). If you rarely beat on the car and it only ever sees WOT rips occasionally and the BAP is indexed (say to a hobbs switch) then it's probably going to add less failure risk. If you like to flog the car a lot and you're running constant voltage boost, it's probably more risk. Bottom line, the most robust and safest option (albeit most expensive) is to increase and improve the entire system.

4) OE pumps and TI doesn't recommend that you provide more than 13.6V. Some aftermarket pump manufacturers (like DW) have tested their pumps and have guidelines for boosting (usually as 18V continuous or 22V intermittent, etc).

5) The rest of the system gets a vote. The factory fuel lines are essentially the equivalent of a 6 AN feed line (no return). This means the pumps will have to work harder to deliver the desired flow and pressure at the rails than they would if you run a larger feed line (8 AN or 10AN). There's a friction loss through the lines themselves and every fitting which results in a pressure drop of a few PSI. That means if you need 70 psi of pressure at the rails, the pumps are having to provide 70+ psi of flow in order to get past the losses to the rails. The higher the flow at the rails, the more an undersized feed line becomes a strain on the pumps.

6) Lastly, of ALL the areas to skimp or go cheap, fuel should be the LAST one on the list. As lean conditions present one of the largest threats (if not the largest threat) to catastrophic outcomes for your motor. If you skimp on axles and you break one, assuming you're launching on a sticky drag strip, it's generally not that big of a deal. You wrecker the car home or to a shop and you swap the axles. If you skimp on other areas, the damage and carnage can be more expensive and collateral damages come into play. If you break a drive shaft for instance, it can beat up the underside of the car. Point is, if your fuel system fails, chances are, it's not going to be some minor cost or damage. It has the potential and likelihood to be very costly. This issue is amplified in post covid era where the car may be down for a significant length of time due to parts availability, etc.

My recommendation is to just bite the bullet and spend the money to give yourself a reliable fuel setup and don't cut corners. Sure you'll always have the guys that come in and say "I've been running 850 hp on the stock lines and pumps with a booster for years with no problems." What you don't see are the guys who smoked their stuff. They rarely chime in.

Fast, cheap, reliable. Pick any two.

Thats good info! I appreciate that. I was only thinking BAP or DW400 cause so many say to just do that at the 700hp i am shooting for. I dont mind spending the money on a fuel system. Would the VMP plug and play be sufficient? It seems like an easy install and is around $2400 with rails. I was planning on GT500 injectors.

 

[Angrey]

Thats good info! I appreciate that. I was only thinking BAP or DW400 cause so many say to just do that at the 700hp i am shooting for. I dont mind spending the money on a fuel system. Would the VMP plug and play be sufficient? It seems like an easy install and is around $2400 with rails. I was planning on GT500 injectors.

Are you DEFINITELY planning to stay at 700 rear?

I'm pretty sure the VMP is constant 18V.

The calculus with the new DI motors gets a little different. Others would need to chime in.

My personal preference would be to NOT boost brush style pumps (on a brushless, it's fine) and simply size the components appropriately to run without a boost.

$2400 seems pretty high just for some pumps a booster and some injectors/rails. Do you have a component listing?

 

[Jjmoberg]

I meant the plug and play fuel system. Its the whole return style system minus rails and injectors.

I wont say definitely/permanently. But i dont plan to put the engine in any more danger than 8-9 psi and 93 octane, unless i build a short block.

 

[engineermike]

The gen3 stock fuel system and control is lightyears ahead of gen1 and 2, and I’m not just referring to the gdi. It has two fuel pressure sensors. It modulates the voltage to control fuel pressure. If it can’t meet pressure setpoint it will go to max voltage. It will then start extending injector pulsewidth to flow the appropriate fuel flow at that actual pressure (vs target pressure). It’s always calculating max injector pulsewidth and when the commanded exceeds maximum the torque source switches to “insufficient fuel flow” and, if the tune isn’t botched, it will start modulating airflow to keep lambda at target. Even still, it will retard timing if the combination of conditions still leads to running lean. It is very difficult to run a Gen3 lean. Of course, all this is contingent upon the tune working right. Many tuners disable some of these protections because they don’t want the protection algorithms interfering with the values they want to command.

 

[Slopoke]

I’ve been kicking this around. Does it plug and play into the pedal position sensor?

I actually want one for the higher voltage but can’t find much on the dw400 ability to be reliable at 22 volts?

Spoke to the Tech Dept at DeatschWerks. The tech said 18vdc is ok 22vdc only intermittently.

 

[Jjmoberg]

Im happy to do a fuel system. If needed. It seems overkill for 72whp-ish. Also happy to do a DW400 and/or BAP. It seems the DW400 would have plenty of headroom solo to fuel my power pevel. If i do BAP i probably wont do the EZ thats either off or 22v. I would do the 18v and wire it to throttle position.

In the end i think i am gonna defer to Wengerd on the best route.

 

[Slopoke]

Just ordered one from Beefcake. Too bad the Labor Day discount codes don't apply.

 

[Veteran]

Im happy to do a fuel system. If needed. It seems overkill for 72whp-ish. Also happy to do a DW400 and/or BAP. It seems the DW400 would have plenty of headroom solo to fuel my power pevel. If i do BAP i probably wont do the EZ thats either off or 22v. I would do the 18v and wire it to throttle position.

In the end i think i am gonna defer to Wengerd on the best route.

Let us know what he says .

 

[Jjmoberg]

He said he prefers a fuel system but for my power goals and 93, and DW400 and BAP will work just fine.

 

[choltzapple]

I'm running the DW400 on P1X running at 10psi. It's been perfect with pump gas, I've never used E85.

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