Alignment Specs

[BmacIL]

Steeda Progressive spring info

Curb rate 190 lbs/in max rate 225 lbs/in under compression.

Steeda Tech

More than stock on both accounts, so yeah that's not the issue.

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[Roadway 5.0]

Ensure your bushings were clocked and, like Wildcatgoat said, add toe-in (.12 here). I had a similar feeling of vagueness until I did both of these things, now the car drives like a dream.

 

[shiparino]

I've gotta say, I joined this forum yesterday and have gotten tons of help from users and my component supplier already. Very cool. Thanks.

I will PM Steeda Tech, for sure.

@ Hissman - I'm thinking the linears would be better for me also. Went for the progressives because I'm an old fart now and thought I needed the ride comfort over performance. I've run linears on my Mustangs since the 90's, my 02 GT was on the ground and was a bit jarring, but loved the way I could carve up the road.

@ wildcatgoal - I'll discuss that with the Steeda folks and need to go back and look at my original "before" specs from the first alignment, maybe it's that simple.

@ BmacIL - Agreed (everyone feels it in their butt), that's why I couldn't get the alignment guys to "fix" my issue. And yes, I've gone through the tire thing in the past also, saving a few bucks but then saddled with a poor handling set for a year and a half. In this case, it was a clear difference to my butt, before and after dropping off the car. They increased the tire pressure all around, but I immediately put it back to the before level and it still feels as if there's 2 inches of play on center, plus it feels like it's drifting on a straight section of freeway (but it's really not). Perhaps there was some kind of tension from a slight toe angle, rather than dead 0 degrees?

@ Coyote Red - Rear Camber - I'm not sure if they can get it there, with the lowing spring installed, but now that I've heard that from you and one other, at least I have a number to ask for. The factory specs are pretty wide.

Thanks again all.

 

[Roadway 5.0]

They increased the tire pressure all around, but I immediately put it back to the before level and it still feels as if there's 2 inches of play on center, plus it feels like it's drifting on a straight section of freeway (but it's really not). Perhaps there was some kind of tension from a slight toe angle, rather than dead 0 degrees?

Your symptoms really do sound like toe-out.

Consider upping your tire pressure so in your commute it tops out at 36psi; my S550 is very sluggish when the pressures get too low.

 

[shiparino]

@ Roadway 5.0 - Thanks for the input. I'm going to be trying a few things. Do you think that the slight negative Toe gives a "feeling" of tension, so that when it's absolute zero the loss of "tension" makes it feel vague?

 

[NightmareMoon]

Disagree. I've had 0 front toe on my car and the car was terrible to drive - literally the alignment sheet said 0 for toe up front and this was the premier alignment shop in Atlanta area (Gran Turismo). It had no on-center feel.

I had Steeda do my alignment the next time and ended up with 1/16 toe in up front, 0 toe in the rear and the thing will damn near drive itself and my tire wear has been wonderful.

Anyway, I also had my car re-aligned to "factory specs" once for a winter when I daily drove it and it was not confidence inspiring. When I had my track alignment re-done, the beginning spec sheet was all over the place. I had a Ford dealer align to factory specs and he just half-assed it, for sure.

You don't need the camber I have (nor can you achieve it up front since you don't have camber plates), but I have 1/16 toe in up front, 0 toe rear, -2.3/-2.4 front camber, -1.8/-1.9 rear camber. Love how it drives on the street and on track. One day I'll try toe OUT up front since so many use it, but... I really don't suspect that'll make any worthwhile difference.

Firstly OP does have camber plates, so going back for an adjustment to front and rear camber is probably a good idea, and the good news is that small changes in toe aside, we're all on the same page here for the majority of the alignment settings (camber a bit higher in the front than the rear, and your rear is probably too much camber currently).

I'd stand by my recommendation to slightly loosen the rear swaybar (so the front end reacts faster than the rear, the rear stays tucked on corner exit, and to experiment with stiffening the front shocks a little bit to see if that addressed the 'vagueness' feel. Stiffer front shocks (rebound) should make the car feel tighter for things like high-speed lane changes. If you want the car to grip and rotate better for sweepers (but not necessarily react any faster) then stiffen the rear shock rebound instead.

Personally, I really like a twinge of toe-in on the rear axle for self-centering stability under wheelspin. I'd highly recommend it if you don't like being surprised by the rear suddenly stepping out.

Wildcat and I are running very similar camber settings for performance alignment. I'm at ~2.2 front and ~1.8 rear camber. (Most of) these S550s do seem to prefer a slight bias to front camber over rear.

But, what Wildcat calls zero toe "no on-center feel", is what I would call "light handling and responsive turn-in". I don't think those are incompatible descriptions. I have stock springs and front swaybar, and IDK what springs wildcat is running. Its entirely possible that what feels like responsive turn-in on my car feels too light and twitchy on wildcat's (presumably stiffer) suspension.

I like my car to turn easily and quickly, and less toe-in helps that. A lot of people don't like that and prefer a heavier steering wheel that tracks really straight and stable on the highway (a bit of toe-in). I hate that over-stable feel. For me, toe-in on the front feels too heavy and 'dead' in the center, which is what vagueness meant to me. Either way, none of us are suggesting the OP go with more toe-out. That shit gets twitchy fast. 0 or a bit of toe in: season to taste.

 

[shiparino]

@ NightmareMoon Thanks again. Not sure if I'm ever going to get any work done today. ha Like what you're saying and perhaps I can live with the zero toe for a while. Do you think the rear camber can be reduced, with the lowering springs or did you have to add camber adjusters? I will definitely experiment with the rear sway bar, as you suggest. My 02 GT was set up more loose in the back and I liked how I could steer with the throttle.

 

[BmacIL]

@ NightmareMoon Thanks again. Not sure if I'm ever going to get any work done today. ha Like what you're saying and perhaps I can live with the zero toe for a while. Do you think the rear camber can be reduced, with the lowering springs or did you have to add camber adjusters? I will definitely experiment with the rear sway bar, as you suggest. My 02 GT was set up more loose in the back and I liked how I could steer with the throttle.

Yes the camber is adjustable in the rear. The inner connection point to the subframe is slotted. If you soften the rear bar it should be more planted overall, but will give you some stability to steer more with the throttle (and the diff will bias torque better with less rear swaybar stiffness).

 

[Roadway 5.0]

@ Roadway 5.0 - Thanks for the input. I'm going to be trying a few things. Do you think that the slight negative Toe gives a "feeling" of tension, so that when it's absolute zero the loss of "tension" makes it feel vague?

Great question. After lowering my car I, provably, had negative toe (or toe-out). I recall having around -.1. At slow speeds the wheel felt much lighter, and at higher speeds the steering was daft (not to mention tramlining intensely).

With an alighment and the addition of positive toe (toe-in), just a touch, my highway speeds (generally cruising at 120mph) is much more comfortable and predictable. However, I feel the steering is significantly smoother at high speeds with the steering resistance in “normal”. 60mph and below is absolutely delicious in “sport”.

 

[wildcatgoal]

Firstly OP does have camber plates, so going back for an adjustment to front and rear camber is probably a good idea, and the good news is that small changes in toe aside, we're all on the same page here for the majority of the alignment settings (camber a bit higher in the front than the rear, and your rear is probably too much camber currently).

I'd stand by my recommendation to slightly loosen the rear swaybar (so the front end reacts faster than the rear, the rear stays tucked on corner exit, and to experiment with stiffening the front shocks a little bit to see if that addressed the 'vagueness' feel. Stiffer front shocks (rebound) should make the car feel tighter for things like high-speed lane changes. If you want the car to grip and rotate better for sweepers (but not necessarily react any faster) then stiffen the rear shock rebound instead.

Personally, I really like a twinge of toe-in on the rear axle for self-centering stability under wheelspin. I'd highly recommend it if you don't like being surprised by the rear suddenly stepping out.

Wildcat and I are running very similar camber settings for performance alignment. I'm at ~2.2 front and ~1.8 rear camber. (Most of) these S550s do seem to prefer a slight bias to front camber over rear.

But, what Wildcat calls zero toe "no on-center feel", is what I would call "light handling and responsive turn-in". I don't think those are incompatible descriptions. I have stock springs and front swaybar, and IDK what springs wildcat is running. Its entirely possible that what feels like responsive turn-in on my car feels too light and twitchy on wildcat's (presumably stiffer) suspension.

I like my car to turn easily and quickly, and less toe-in helps that. A lot of people don't like that and prefer a heavier steering wheel that tracks really straight and stable on the highway (a bit of toe-in). I hate that over-stable feel. For me, toe-in on the front feels too heavy and 'dead' in the center, which is what vagueness meant to me. Either way, none of us are suggesting the OP go with more toe-out. That shit gets twitchy fast. 0 or a bit of toe in: season to taste.

Great post.

I have Steeda's Dual Rate Comp springs... she's stiff. Damped well enough at this point, but stiff. Haha. I think it's like a 350 front and 1200 rear at curb weight, give or take... if'n I remember correct-like.

The car started liking a little toe in ever since Swift Spec R springs, which have a 230-ish front rate and a rear rate in the high 800s, can't remember. It's in that spring rate thread somewhere.

When I had 0 toe up front, I found myself having to correct on track straights when I would have rather focused my limited ape brain power on something else... like footwork prep for breaking, which I have to do with my destroyed right ankle that doesn't like the angles I have to go to in order to heal-toe with this dumb pedal box. I wish I could transfer a BMW bottom hinge gas pedal to this car, but I digress... haha.

 

[shiparino]

@ wildcatgoal - Think you nailed my vague feeling, "When I had 0 toe up front, I found myself having to correct on track straights..." I'm not on the track, but this is exactly what I'm feeling on the freeway, albeit not at Roadway 5.0 120 mph, more like 60-90 mph.

Steeda replied back in PM also.

Thanks for the help on this guys. I've got just a little work to do. That's why I have a big garage...

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