A10 vs M6 for serious track duty EB Mustang?

[D K]

Hey guys

Im normally a manual guy but have heard that the A10 might be better suited for serious track duty?

I have decided to go with a 2.0 short block and build it out to about 500hp And wondering which way to go....

I know the Ecoboost MT82 is made of glass, but how is the Automatic? Specially after a tune?

Also, I do have a T56 Mag XL on the shelf that I would use in place of the MT82 if I went that route.

Here is the way I see the pros and cons with each, please feel free to correct me.

A10 Pros
Cars are more plentiful
Can handle the power?
Faster shifts

A10 Cons
Heavier than M6
Available on 2018+ only
If it turns out A10 doesnt work out, installing my XL would be more involved. New PCM etc

M6 pros
Might be a great starting point for stock level power
Lighter weight
Donor car can be 2015+
XL swap much easier (bellhousing and driveshaft)
Better ratio diff?

M6 cons
Stock MT82 fragile
Means I have to be committed to the trans swap
Might end up with a slower car overall after everything is said and done?
Slower shifting than automatic


Plan for the car is a track focused car but not wheel to wheel. Means Im gutting the interior, replacing glass with lexan, no AC, I would love to get below 3000, but that might be hard to do. Not sure because there arent too many fully gutted builds here.

So, if anyone feels like chiming in - shoot.
Would love to hear some feedback.
David

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[Ewheels]

@Flyhalf can answer all your questions. He might just be the fastest A10 guy out there right now. He's on his 4th(?) A10 right now.....they do not handle heat well at all.

 

[Flyhalf]

Feel free to ask.
I only track my A10.

Some info

Fast upshifting (you can keep up with shelbys because the fast shifting)
Allows you to brake with left foot cause only 2 pedals (the most important feature)
U use 4-5-6-7 gear at the track only
Cons
This is my 3rd transmission in 15k miles because heat managment is hard. (I have a huge trans cooler and a water spray system to cool the coolers).main issue is the torque converter and his lockup clutch built in the surface (and not a separate piece. )

Downshifting is awful

However
It all depends on your speeds.
If i slow 2 sec the pace i can run 8hrs lol.

The car runs 1.36 at laguna which is the same laptime of the 350R driven by randy pobst. So potential is great. The risk of failure too

On the other hand.
The 10speed chevy seems more robust. And they did a great job on heat managment.
Hope this helps
Alex

 

[D K]

Thank you for the replies guys...

Yea, I'm looking to do some very serious track time, etc.
I've had a few different race cars, so I'm definitely not looking to take it easy..

 

[D K]

hDo you think you would not be able to keep up with Shelbys if you had a manual?

Fast upshifting (you can keep up with shelbys because the fast shifting)

 

[Grintch]

The usual problem, with a manual, you decide when to shift. With an auto, it decides when to shift. Even with paddles, those shifts are often treated more as requests than "shift now!" commands.

Start modifying the engine and you have to worry if the trans will shift at your new, higher redline or the stock redline (which negates most of the power gain/point).

 

[D K]

My biggest worry is 1. heat - which seems to be a huge problem (although not unsrumountable) in these cars, and
2. the 'behavior' of the A10. When I drive an auto car and manually shift at high rpm, it seems to 'hang' a little bit. Almost like you have to shift before the redline, or it will sit there and think about it...


I'm starting to lean towards the M6 because
A) I have a trans ready for it.
B) I'm not getting the warm and fuzzies with respect to people describing the Auto
and possibly
C) its about 125lbs lighter which is almost 300 lbs lighter than a GT...?...

The usual problem, with a manual, you decide when to shift. With an auto, it decides when to shift. Even with paddles, those shifts are often treated more as requests than "shift now!" commands.

Start modifying the engine and you have to worry if the trans will shift at your new, higher redline or the stock redline (which negates most of the power gain/point).

 

[EFI]

So has there ever been an instance (in a properly working unit) that using the paddles to command a shift and the computer doesn't actually do it?

And again, has there been an instance where even when in full "paddle/manual" mode, the computer decided to shift when the driver didn't actually command a shift?

Just trying to understand the difference between being in full control with a manual vs. being in full control using the paddles in the way Ford intended them eg. to 100% control when and if to shift.

The usual problem, with a manual, you decide when to shift. With an auto, it decides when to shift. Even with paddles, those shifts are often treated more as requests than "shift now!" commands.

 

[EFI]

Why would this even be an "if"?

Just like with any other parameter in the ECU, you can tune when the automatic will shift. So if you raise the redline in the tune, you then raise the shift speed accordingly.

Does that not work? Like if you set the WOT shift point at 8000rpm for example, is there a chance that the car will be like "nah, don't feel like shifting then, I'll shift early".

Start modifying the engine and you have to worry if the trans will shift at your new, higher redline or the stock redline (which negates most of the power gain/point).

 

[D K]

I don't know about switching gears when not commanded, but for sure, at high rpm, there is a delay (latency) from the switch to the actual gear change.
And if you are in the redline, then it won't shift until you bring the rpms back down(?).

This happened to me when I broke traction while near redline and tried to upshift, but it wouldnt.

So has there ever been an instance (in a properly working unit) that using the paddles to command a shift and the computer doesn't actually do it?

And again, has there been an instance where even when in full "paddle/manual" mode, the computer decided to shift when the driver didn't actually command a shift?

Just trying to understand the difference between being in full control with a manual vs. being in full control using the paddles in the way Ford intended them eg. to 100% control when and if to shift.

 

[EFI]

I mean technically, there is also a delay between when you start the manual shifting process. It takes a split second between the time you press in the clutch, move the shifter, and release the clutch to be in next gear. Nothing is instant, not even the best DCTs in the world. But the "delay" between gears is alot less in an auto than a manual.

Not sure what you mean by redline, so you're saying that if you hit the rev limiter and then you try to shift with the paddle it won't let you?

I don't know about switching gears when not commanded, but for sure, at high rpm, there is a delay (latency) from the switch to the actual gear change.
And if you are in the redline, then it won't shift until you bring the rpms back down(?).

This happened to me when I broke traction while near redline and tried to upshift, but it wouldnt.

 

[fatbillybob]

Well I do feel for flyhalf with his A10 woes but he is a 1st year 2018 and unprecedented 3rd box. Quite frankly Ford sucks. I'm not convinced Ford techs can reliably replace an A10. I'm also not impressed with their engineering. It's serious like a heart transplant. Lots to mess up. I say this as a DIY guy who hasn't used an outside tech for 30 years for any car. I do have skills fabricating racecars, 4 welders and past apprentice Ferrari mechanic.

I only race SCCA. There is a national championship level driver campaigning an A10 Ecoboost. The box works fine. I'm new to Mustang and racing a new 2019 A10 GT I just finished building last year. It has 5 race weekends and working better than expected.

Here is the hype: The 10R80 shifts faster than porsche pdk. The GM and Ford unit is the same but the chevy has the transmission heat issue under control.

https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news...ed-auto-shifts-faster-than-porsche-s-pdk.html

https://www.motortrend.com/news/why...automatic-is-so-much-quicker-than-the-manual/

I also have a 2017 cayman PDK streetcar. Does the A10 shift as fast? Well I think so. But we are talking about millisecond shift speeds and I don't have a device to time this. Both boxes feel like they shift the same. PDK is no panecea. The porsche guys don't generally race pdks. There are too many failures, also hard to reject heat, and cost too much to fix and maintain. You need the porsche computer to change the gear oil!!!! That's why I'm not racing a pdk or BMW's DCT. The A10 is supposed to be hot stuff!

So I'm racing my A10 at the highest amateur level with SCCA where we travel around the country to race and have a national championship race at the end of the season for the top drivers in the country. When I race those Runoffs I end up in the middle. You need a combo of luck, talent, and money to win. I have a only a little luck, only a little talent and a little bit of money. I'm never winning Runoffs nor am I trying. I do however, love to compete and have fun.

That's my backround. So to the OP here is my reply. Reort is the A10 and Manual are 3lb different. True or false I do not know. My 2019 A10 works exactly as I want. I turn all nannies off running manually only and in sport with steering in default comfort. The A10 upshifts and down shifts when I command. It will drop 2 gears from a fast straight to a slow corner on command. Shifts never hang. It works as good as the 2017 porsche pdk. I'm not looking to tune it because it works just fine. I left foot brake and did so when I heel and toe downshift too but the autobox is obviously easier. I have never had an overheat problem. I have posted the giant cooler I use for Oil and A10. I deleted my A/C and condenser so have more up front airflow for coolers. My radiator and coolers are not even boxed in like flyhalf and I do not use water spray. My races are 30-45mins long depending on regional or national in all USA ambient temps but I hate heat and try not to race when hot unless I must. I am a heat wimp. I overheat before my car ever will. That ice chest holds ice for my coolsuit and coolclava. While Flyhalf will track buttonwillow in july you will never catch me there. That said my car has not yet seen high ambient temps. I'm having zero issues keeping diff, oil, or tranny cool with big 67,000btu derale coolers up front. For me my A10 box is living up to the hype.

Finally about programing I'm not sure about rpm limits for the A10 and the motor needing to jive. I see no reason to change them. Here is my reasoning. When we raced the C5 Vettes are autoclub speedway 4th gear topped out at 150ish mph but we could go 157ish mph before having to left off the gas. That ment shifting to 5th which cost time and then the downshift which you could screw up upset car and even crash if down really badly. That cost laptime! So most of use had the ecu tune to up the rpm limit +500 not for more power but to be able to avoid an upshift and downshift. How often does that happen where you race? The A10 has 10 gears. I'm sure you got what you need there and the autoclub speedway problem will never exist. Also the A10 is automatic. It isn't going to make a mistake. We are lucky is can downshift 2 gears in 2 paddle pulls. It isn't dropping to 1st locking up wheels and sendin you into a wall. It can't do a money shift. I can't think of a reason I would need to change the RPM limit from stock unless a motor was build non-stock and you have a big mismatch

 

[Flyhalf]

The usual problem, with a manual, you decide when to shift. With an auto, it decides when to shift. Even with paddles, those shifts are often treated more as requests than "shift now!" commands.

Start modifying the engine and you have to worry if the trans will shift at your new, higher redline or the stock redline (which negates most of the power gain/point).

This actually not true.
The 10speed lockup pretty soon.
And the shifting IF PADDLE is real

 

[Flyhalf]

WhennI changed to the bigger cooler (second trans) the temps were absolutely under control.
What it failed was the TC
The 27 clutches were good except for one. (Slighty marked)
My new tranny is not working well because too much thick fluid. I'll go back to OEM fluid and i will make a little hole in the filter to facilitate fluid passage. Also we probably found a way to keep the cooler open and working (otherwise it activates at190f)
I'll keep u in the loop
Alex

 

[D K]

Interesting that 2 people have such different experiences..

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