A10 vs M6 for serious track duty EB Mustang?

[EFI]

Not exactly, one has direct and extensive experience with it on track, the other only drives manuals.

It seems for the most part the ones that do drive it on track have a good experience (aside from the heating problems) and the ones that don't just regurgitate generalized information about automatics on track.

Interesting that 2 people have such different experiences..

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[fatbillybob]

My new tranny is not working well because too much thick fluid. I'll go back to OEM fluid

For you the LV was a failure vs ULV once at race temp?

 

[fatbillybob]

Interesting that 2 people have such different experiences..

Agreed! It seems 1st year cars have more issues overall. Listening to other people I hear having m,multiple ford problems across the platform, I might have got a really good 2019? We need more data! But the other SCCA racer runnning the A10 ecoB is just fine with his. He is not in my state so we talk rarely at the track when our paths cross. The EB just did win the Runoffs in T3 class in 6speed form. The chassis can be made fast.

 

[D K]

That is great, fantastic news!

I got really intrigued when I saw a comparo between the Porsche GT3RS a d the GT500.

Different car, I know, but same architecture.

As wih any car, weight is the enemy, so I am choosing to go with the lightest platform, the Ecoboost.
Also, the Coyote seems good from the onset, but is limited in the amount of ‘growth’.
The other thing is that I live in Denver, so NA is a serious pain because of how much power you lose.

I will look for a 19 if the 18’s have more issues.


Good to know! I hope I can reach out from time to time to learn about tips and pitfalls?

David

Agreed! It seems 1st year cars have more issues overall. Listening to other people I hear having m,multiple ford problems across the platform, I might have got a really good 2019? We need more data! But the other SCCA racer runnning the A10 ecoB is just fine with his. He is not in my state so we talk rarely at the track when our paths cross. The EB just did win the Runoffs in T3 class in 6speed form. The chassis can be made fast.

 

[Flyhalf]

For you the LV was a failure vs ULV once at race temp?

Yes. And not only actually when i bedded the pads also temps where higher than normal.
Apperently the thicker oil generates more heat and also doesn't pass easily though the filter.
Maybe the mix of fluid i have is just too much?
Maybe they didn't fill properly the tranny?
Maybe the upgraded clutches do this?
I'll find out soon.

 

[fatbillybob]

Yes. And not only actually when i bedded the pads also temps where higher than normal.
Apperently the thicker oil generates more heat and also doesn't pass easily though the filter.
Maybe the mix of fluid i have is just too much?
Maybe they didn't fill properly the tranny?
Maybe the upgraded clutches do this?
I'll find out soon.

https://www.transmissiondigest.com/10r80-10l90-ford-gm-ten-speed-unique-filter-system/

Can we defeat the thermal door and just filter course like other cars? Racers keep oil so clean I do not think we have the same issues with filtering that a mustang with 100K miles is going to have. I swear my engine oil is so clean I could drain it out of my racecar mustang and pour it into my daily driver.

I do not see how generating extra heat happens. If it did the viscosity would be lower still and flow. LV oil at race temp is the viscosity of ULV at freeway speeds. I'm not having a problem with the mixing LV and ULV. In fact my next change is to completely LV and see what that does. If this is your 1st mix of ULV and LV maybe it's not the fluid but the new trans still not right? Who is installing the trans? Is the trans a new crate trans from ford? There is not enough data on ULV or if LV is possible, Ford certainly will not recommend it. Ford's rec of 0-40wt for racing vs the 20wt we have as a streetcar is exactly the kind of viscosity switch I have used on racecars for decades with great results. In fact since the racecars have not cats I run diesel oil in my gas motor racecars because there is more zzdp like racing oils and diesel oil is cheaper than gas motor SN rated oils!

What is your shifting problem now? When I call for gears the box shifts. My trans will not shift when I get to redline unless I call for it. Instead the RPM limiter kicks in to prevent engine destruction. There is some kind of tranny self-learn thing. I do not know if it keeps a memory or re-learns every time I cut the battery? We cut battery power always if engine not running. Is it possible since I only race and only use sport with paddles that my box is learning what I want? Can street miles you put on effect what you call for on the track?

I only have class legal 200sq inches of hood ducting, no boxing in of the radiator shroud area. No condenser. 50mm flat plane restrictor for my class (make less HP). I do not think this makes me generate less heat. I have stock PP1 aero per class rules.

Is your motor putting out more power than stock? Your aero lowers your laptime but is not increasing heat and not effecting shifting. Is there a possible mismatch of your RPM limit of trans to motor? I thought the trans had to talk to the motor through PCM? Could there be some sort of Programing problem casuing the failure not the trans? If you had a bad PCM engine tune that causes and engine to lean out and blow up the next engine will blow up too. The problem is not the engine but the tune. You see where I am going with this?

 

[Grintch]

So has there ever been an instance (in a properly working unit) that using the paddles to command a shift and the computer doesn't actually do it?

And again, has there been an instance where even when in full "paddle/manual" mode, the computer decided to shift when the driver didn't actually command a shift?

Just trying to understand the difference between being in full control with a manual vs. being in full control using the paddles in the way Ford intended them eg. to 100% control when and if to shift.

It's more a question of when than if, most of the time. If I click the paddle, I expect a shift now, not 5 seconds later. Important difference when you are in a corner on the edge of traction. But it is not uncommon for current autos to shift at "redline" when not commanded , and to not shift when commanded, even in manual mode (I can't say if the the Mustang A10 does this, though I have seen the odd complaint about the trans not shifting or being slow to shift). This is not always a bad thing, when it prevents over revs (if the trans idea of the rev limit is correct), but the rest of the time (or if the engine has mods that have moved the redline) its a big problem for track use. The whole availiblity of paddles and manual shift modes is often a fake out unless the programming is serious about them (apparently this is all in the controller, the physcial trans is rarely the issue, given different cars with the same trans can behave quite differently [see the reviews of all the cars that use the widely used ZF 8 speed, that show very different results]).

See Flyhalf's complaints above about downshifts. I assumed those were for downshift commands resulting in downshifts when the computer says so, rather than when requested. Perhaps he will provide details?

 

[D K]

Ughhhh.....

All good points and the rabbit hole goes deeper.....

I wonder if we can decide for sure if its a physical issue with the trans or the control software.

I would love to hear from people who have had the trans tuned.
Wonder if there is someone who is really good at tuning the trans specifically?

Is the 6R80 in the same league?

It has been a long time opinion of mine that most factory transmissions have only 4 useable gears on track.
You can never use first and very rarely do you use 6th bcause the rom drop is huge...

seperate question....suppose a person has an automatic car. Now they want to convert to manual. What all needs to be changed besides the mechanical parts?
Does the car need a new pcm or can an auto pcm be coded to work with manual?

It's more a question of when than if, most of the time. If I click the paddle, I expect a shift now, not 5 seconds later. Important difference when you are in a corner on the edge of traction. But it is not uncommon for current autos to shift at "redline" when not commanded , and to not shift when commanded, even in manual mode (I can't say if the the Mustang A10 does this, though I have seen the odd complaint about the trans not shifting or being slow to shift). This is not always a bad thing, when it prevents over revs (if the trans idea of the rev limit is correct), but the rest of the time (or if the engine has mods that have moved the redline) its a big problem for track use. The whole availiblity of paddles and manual shift modes is often a fake out unless the programming is serious about them (apparently this is all in the controller, the physcial trans is rarely the issue, given different cars with the same trans can behave quite differently [see the reviews of all the cars that use the widely used ZF 8 speed, that show very different results]).

See Flyhalf's complaints above about downshifts. I assumed those were for downshift commands resulting in downshifts when the computer says so, rather than when requested. Perhaps he will provide details?

 

[fatbillybob]

It's more a question of when than if, most of the time. If I click the paddle, I expect a shift now, not 5 seconds later. Important difference when you are in a corner on the edge of traction. But it is not uncommon for current autos to shift at "redline" when not commanded , and to not shift when commanded, even in manual mode (I can't say if the the Mustang A10 does this, though I have seen the odd complaint about the trans not shifting or being slow to shift). This is not always a bad thing, when it prevents over revs (if the trans idea of the rev limit is correct), but the rest of the time (or if the engine has mods that have moved the redline) its a big problem for track use. The whole availiblity of paddles and manual shift modes is often a fake out unless the programming is serious about them (apparently this is all in the controller, the physcial trans is rarely the issue,

The A10 is advertised not to do what you are saying. I can attest that racing my A10 it acts like a manual. I call a gear it goes there. I hit redline the RPM limiter kicks in to kill power but the trans is still locked in gear just like your manual would be. If you hit the limiter you have to upshift just like a manual.

Maybe problems come when people drive in Sport Automatic then decide to start calling gears and the box freaks out when say you head toward redline the box does not know whether you are going to shift or it should shift. I do not know if it means anything to the PCM, but from the moment my engine is running the car only knows sport manual and it's 1st input and all subsequent inputs are by paddle. Could some weird actions of the box because by the user?

 

[fatbillybob]

I would love to hear from people who have had the trans tuned.
Wonder if there is someone who is really good at tuning the trans specifically?

I hear there are some trans tuners but I do not know who they are. Some will tune in HPTuners where if you raise the motor RPM limit you have to raise the tranny so things match. I'm not sure if you have to do something with tranny when you delete the speed limiter. I have never even looked into tuning because the box does what I ask it to do faster than I can with a clutch for me. Remember the claim is this box is faster than PDK.

 

[D K]

A lot of good info here...

Some contradicting, some not.

I've talked to a lot of people about this, tuners, racers, etc.

As of this moment, I think that the manual option outweighs the A10 or even the A6 at this time.
It seems to me that the automatic is slightly faster during acceleration, but so far I'm not convinced with the behavior during downshifts and the overall durability.

One of the things that I am trying to achieve is to build a light weight track car, and my opinion is that the added complexity and weight required to calm the autmatic down is not worth the small benefit of going through the gears faster and leaving a lot of question marks on the table.

One of the things that I require out of a race car is preciseness and if there is even a little bit of hesitation on a downshift or some other sort of vagueness, then I can't drive the car on the absolute limit and therefore leave time on the table.

I'm still waiting to hear back from a couple of people regarding the A6 (which I hadn't originally considered, thanks #flyhalf) and will consider that as an option if it ticks the right boxes.

Great info on this thread otherwise, and hopefully it will help others who are faced with the same dilemma.

David

 

[fatbillybob]

I don't think the A6 will work at all. The manual is a chinese gearbox and would need to be hardened at a minimum. If you go manual pick another car. The only reason to go stang is the A10. While the A10 is the best thing about the stang if I had to do it over again I'm with Flyhalf get the Camaro. I discounted it because I could not see out of it but the chassis is so much better and so is the engineering. The mustang is a faux performance car. If I could get the $50+K I have into this stang I would sell it without hesitation

 

[TeeLew]

I think about any of the new OEM paddle shift automatics are faster than a synchro manual. I have a manual because that's what I want to drive, not because I think it's faster.

 

[fatbillybob]

I think about any of the new OEM paddle shift automatics are faster than a synchro manual. I have a manual because that's what I want to drive, not because I think it's faster.

Sure...but I'm not on a sunday drive.
I'm racing.

 

[TeeLew]

Sure...but I'm not on a sunday drive.
I'm racing.

I understand.

Very often while racing you have to choose between reliability & speed. The sticking point here is that the manual may not have the overheating issue, but it's not exactly the picture of reliability, either.

For the record, I know my manual is slower when zig-zagging between cones, but I accept it because I'm a curmudgeon who likes to shift. Improving the shifting will make it less of a liability, but it will always be one to some extent.

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