3.5L ecoboost turbo's on the 3.7L

[pinero61]

The F-150/SHO, etc EcoBoost engine's turbos are boost controlled by the PCM. There is a misconception that if the boost drops off in EcoBoost applications its because the turbos are finished. That is not totally true. The boost does drop but that's primarily because of PCM boost management. We've seen with tuning these little turbos making boost up to 15-18PSI out close to 6000 RPM.

We've tested the stock wastegates on the EcoBoost turbos and they are fully open at 10PSI. Using these turbos on a 3.7 application without PCM boost management, means that with a simple manual boost controller, boost from 10-15PSI is easily attainable with the turbos still pumping at close to 6000RPM.

Yes bigger turbos will make more power, but these turbos are very inexpensive, make terrific street/strip power and a full system will prolly come in around $2500 or so.

Boost isn't the issue... I hold 20-22 PSI with a steady drop past 4500 all the way to redline, CFM is the issue. The turbos are too small to feed the air required to push the 3.5 at speed. It's like trying to blow up a balloon quickly through a coffee stirring straw.

I'm not saying that they won't run great on the 3.7, just that your power will be more concentrated in the low end and slowly taper off up top. My point is that you 2,500 dollar kit with a 2k dollar set of aftermarket EB turbos will be a better option than OE Borg Warners.

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[Fuse]

Maybe I am just impatient but what's the current state of the whole 3.7 ecoboost conversion? Last info here was that you guys are doing beta kits for attaching the 3.5 ecoboost parts. Or maybe I misunderstood something.

The price and theoretical gains has me so intrigued.

 

[Fuse]

Yep I am just impatient. Great to hear that things are moving along.

 

[kodypiccirilli]

Yes we have Beta test kits available. MPT will be tuning the first beta tester with a 2011-2014 model very soon.

If tuning for the beta kits will be done on a 11-14 model will it be using MAF instead of MAP? Will that affect getting a flash tune for2015 models?

 

[sj90]

Boost isn't the issue... I hold 20-22 PSI with a steady drop past 4500 all the way to redline, CFM is the issue. The turbos are too small to feed the air required to push the 3.5 at speed. It's like trying to blow up a balloon quickly through a coffee stirring straw.

I'm not saying that they won't run great on the 3.7, just that your power will be more concentrated in the low end and slowly taper off up top. My point is that you 2,500 dollar kit with a 2k dollar set of aftermarket EB turbos will be a better option than OE Borg Warners.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, I have little experience with turbos, but this is my understanding of how a turbo system works.

Turbo----Intercooler/Piping----Boost Reading-----Intake/Heads-----Combustion

Out of curiosity, which would be the coffee stir stick?

The boost we see is the back pressure created by the turbo putting out more SCFM than the Intake and Heads can flow at a lower pressure delta. So we can't be low on required SCFM and still be at boost target.

The SCFM in the combustion chamber is what creates horsepower.


With that said, this is looking at the system at a low level. When you get into it further, the size of the turbo starts to weigh in.

On the compressor side, with a higher pressure ratio and CFM you are likely outside of the design area of the turbo. Meaning you are likely heating the air more than a properly sized turbo, and wasting energy. The extra work here is coming from the turbine.

The amount of exhaust pressure required to spin the turbine to create the required flow and pressure is another source of losses. Back pressure here creates two losses. One being the mechanical loss of piston pushing the exhaust at a higher pressure. The other is more exhaust gas is left in the combustion chamber after the exhaust stroke, meaning less fresh air and fuel can be added. The harder the compressor works, the more is required of the turbine. Turbines also have an efficiency range, and the further you get from it, the more wasted energy there is.

So from my understanding, what you are describing of HP dropping off at 4500 could come from either the engine being the restriction or the turbo is outside of it's efficiency range or a combo of both.

It's hard to say for sure what the turbo's will do on the 3.7 since the heads flow much better (if my memory serves me right). The engine should make similar/more HP at a lower pressure ratio and allow the turbo to function more efficiently. How high they'll be able to go, I have no idea.

Like I said, I'm no expert, turbo's just fascinate me and I like learning about them as much as possible. So if I'm off base here, let me know!

 

[WhyNot]

did the ssm kit ever get finalized including the tune? looks like the last post was back in june.

 

[zackmd1]

Current progress is being posted here.

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57645

Turbos are installed but intercooler piping has not been finalized yet.

 

[Fuse]

did the ssm kit ever get finalized including the tune? looks like the last post was back in june.

They have the kit up on their website.They have the kit listed as $825. The only thing stopping me from doing this is the lack of know-how and experience in building. I need to find a shop for this.

 

[zackmd1]

I will be going with the ecoboost turbos as well but will be making my own kit basically. I have access to a machine shop thanks to my University so I can make the main adapter plates easily and most importantly, cheaply. Hoping to keep my entire setup under the $2k mark.

 

[Fuse]

Zack, you seem to know what you are doing. How difficult do you think it will be to put together the entire thing?

 

[5-OH]

It's funny how so many stangers rag on v6 drivers, but they should know that most mustangs are equipped v6 engines. I love it when v6 guys add some power adder and smoke GT's for fun that being said I'd love to see this,but the compression I think would be way to high. It used to be you could just double up on head gaskets and play with the timing to reduce the compression however those days are long gone

 

[zackmd1]

Zack, you seem to know what you are doing. How difficult do you think it will be to put together the entire thing?

It will be difficult for the first few as there will certainty be a few learning curves relating to the OEM turbo setup. I will be spending the next 2-3 months planning out the setup. But once we have a more concrete understanding of how to do the swap and exactly how to connect everything, It should be no more complicated then an advanced bolt on like a procharger.

 

[zackmd1]

It's funny how so many stangers rag on v6 drivers, but they should know that most mustangs are equipped v6 engines. I love it when v6 guys add some power adder and smoke GT's for fun that being said I'd love to see this,but the compression I think would be way to high. It used to be you could just double up on head gaskets and play with the timing to reduce the compression however those days are long gone

A lot of people do but it will certainly be nice to show them up with a sleeper ecoboost 3.7!!

I don't think compression will be that much of a problem. The 3.5 EB has a 10:1 compression while the 3.7 has an 11:1 just like the 5.0. Remember that there are plenty of FI 3.7s out there. Your boost target will be low (around 5-8 psi is safe) but that is all that is needed to make the 3.7 put out 425+ RWHP.

 

[5-OH]

A lot of people do but it will certainly be nice to show them up with a sleeper ecoboost 3.7!!

I don't think compression will be that much of a problem. The 3.5 EB has a 10:1 compression while the 3.7 has an 11:1 just like the 5.0. Remember that there are plenty of FI 3.7s out there. Your boost target will be low (around 5-8 psi is safe) but that is all that is needed to make the 3.7 put out 425+ RWHP.

I had a guy in my old mustang club about ten years ago that had a new edge 3.8 equipped car with a eBay turbo kit I believe it was a on3 kit, and he would just wipe the floor with most other v8 powered cars. It was a 10.5 car and reliable

 

[kodypiccirilli]

Not sure who all has been following my progress on this kit in my own build thread: http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57645

The car is getting very close to be ready for tuning, and then DRIVING!

I just recently posted a time slip from Tom Y (SuperSixMotorsports) when he took his procharged 3.7 to the dragstrip. His quote was that he beat 6 2015+ GT's and a 2016 GT350 while running 11.97 in the 1/4 at almost 118mph. He also said to expect VERY similar times/power gains as his car. Go check out the time slip for all of the times posted..

Also, here is a YouTube video on my channel of a "recap" of what has been purchased and installed on my car so far..

[ame]

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