2014 Z28 Assault Thread.

[thePill]

Definitely the most entertaining thread I've seen in a while. :lol:

Spread the gospel bruutha.

I won't stop until somebody calls the cops and even then, I'll start again and just pretend.. that... nothing ever happened...

I am currently digging into Motor Trend's opinion on the subject. They are aware... Although, an accusation like that could lose their exclusive on the car. They may throw caution to the wind and may take some offense to such an airheaded marketing plan.

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[thePill]

Here is Mr. Mark Reuss's take on the Z28 (perhaps prior to his knowledge of its illegalities)

“As the ultimate track-capable Camaro, this car restores the mission of the original Z/28, and serves as a testament to the expertise of Chevrolet as the best-selling brand of performance cars,” said Mark Reuss, president, GM North America. “The build sheet is the wish list of any racer: lightweight, high-revving, dry-sump LS7 engine; carbon-ceramic brakes; integrated coolers for track use; true aerodynamic downforce, and a significant reduction in curb weight. This car could only come from Chevrolet, and could only be called the Z/28.”

"Ultimate track-capable"
Well, its too early to tell if this is the Ultimate track Camaro. If the statement was made purely on Chevy's results on their own track, ugggg... Chevy's track record (pun intended) when it comes to performance numbers isn't a very good sign on where this thing is headed. They are still convinced that the ZL1 is faster than the GT500 on ANY course. The only comparisons we were subjected to were magazine test. Even the test proved that the GT500 and ZL1 was back and forth. They still trudge on as the winner even if it is their own minds. The only independent race between the two was Van's Black Swan from Revan Racing and Erik of Torq's ZL1. Van's five-hundert eliminated any doubts in Chevy's "more bark than bite" marketing. I mean... He moved passed the ZL1 as a 5.0 moves around a 1LT Camaro. When is the ZL1 ever going to get a decisive win? Probably never... I don't even want to get into their 1/4 mile claims with the ZL1. They say 11.9, real life says 12.6. I know there are a handful of ZL1's that hit 12 flat and maybe an 11.9. Big deal!!! The 2007 GT500 had a handful of runs in the low 12's and the '10 had an actually 11.9 too (higher trap than the piggy). Again, take a claim from Chevy as you would a witness of Jehovah...

"Best-selling"
Not last month and not overall. Another term Chevy throws around. The S197 and 5th Gen are almost neck and neck. Fist pumping that you CAN win every now and then is okay. I just wouldn't market it in such a way that Ford could possibly overthrow you before the S550 comes out. If you constantly bring up "best-selling", Ford will capitalize as soon as it takes the lead. The Mustang just beat the Camaro in sales again last month... Does that mean the Mustang is the "best selling" in the market now? If the Camaro was truly "best selling", they wouldn't have been put in the grave in 2002. You won't see that advertised while the Camaro is "best selling".

Maybe they mean the 5th Gen is the best selling Camaro... But then again... They would be wrong.

"the wish list of any racer"
Excuse me? Come again? I believe the "wish" of ALL racers (and he did say RACERS) would be to have a competitive option that is sanctioned by the manufacture and permitted to compete nationwide. As I said before, most professional drivers won't even give the Z28 an honest look due to the standard equipment being prohibited. It looks like General Motors North American president is suggesting that customers can "race" this Z28 competitively. It's an issue that apparently nobody cares about now. They don't care because they likely never intended on racing the Z28. Let's put the Mustang in the Z28's shoes for a moment...

What do you think would happen if the Boss 302 had illegal standard equipment? It would receive heavy criticism from forums, press and the company.

Most Camaro5 members including moderators didn't know the car was prohibited from racing. I am starting to believe that the super high speed engineers at Chevy didn't really know either. If they did know, do you think they would have continued to build the car the way they did? They are aware of the issue now... silence is usually how they deal with a slap in the face. The ZL1 delay (silence), Convertible disaster (silence), Initial QC issues (silence)... Just the way it is...

 

[thePill]

I felt it was time we look at the SCCA's current standings. Maybe take a jab at the 1LE since it's having an OUTSTANDING SEASON waaaaaaay down in 21st place overall in T2. Chevy chose to sanction the 1LE against it's direct competitor the 5.0 GT. I know ALL the magazine test save one, put the Boss 302 LS against the 1LE. According to every publication, the 1LE was faster than the best Boss there is. Cheaper too... Well, that is just nonsense. The 1LE is a direct competitor to the GT, the magazines couldn't beat the 1LE BUT... lets look at the 1LE in T2 and see how it's doing against it's main competitor the GT. Remember, the 1LE is $10,000 more than a GT so... it should be kicking ass.

Now, according to some, I'm not too intelligent. This should be a no-brainer right? It's a win for sure. I'm talking 1LE vs. the Boss and GT. It appears that not only has the 1LE sunk to 21st place... There are seven (7) 5.0 GT's placed higher than the highest ranked 1LE. Lol, lol, lol, lol, LOL!!! Again, real life vs. Chevy claims and magazine supporting those claims. Ringers maybe? Yeah, most likely...

Let's look at where the Z28 would be if it had a regular brake option, some smaller disc and a bunch of other crap taken off it so it can compete.

WELL LOOK AT THAT!!! A Boss 302 and a Z06 tied for first, Co-Champions since this was the 7th and final round... Good thing the Z06 can get away with cast iron rotors

Whats up in Trans Am you ask? Well... Chevy runs a full tube frame chassis in this series AND, the Camaro's body isn't production. That said, the Boss 302S won and it is a Spec (OEM chassis and a notch above a Laguna Seca) AND, the body is OEM. LOL-LEE LOL LEE-LOL!!!

DEAN MARTIN WINS IN HIS BOSS 302S!!

Where's the Z28? Shouldn't 2013 be the Z28's maiden season? The Boss 302's maiden season was 2011... Somebody CHICKEN???

The Camaro isn't doing bad in Trans Am but, it's not really a Camaro. It also does well in Grand Am GT but again, full tube frame chassis. THEY STILL HAVE A HARD TIME!!!

I leave you with this parting shot...

I'm glad the Mustang's heritage wasn't forged from cowardice... If they want to play with full tube frames, might I suggest they pick on someone their own size (even though they lost miserably)

GT500 TRANS AM

 

[thePill]

THREE TRACK READY CAMARO'S, ZERO OF THEM WORTH A SH!T...

 

[thePill]

I have been digging into the SCCA's Pirelli World Challenge to see if it's at all possible to get a Z28 on the world stage... In short, NO... and here's why.

First, I want to point out a quote from above. "Z28 was born to be a FUNCTIONAL INSTRUMENT for the TRACK". Wonder if we will get an explanation or are they just gonna ignore this.

I thought I found a loophole for the Carbon Ceramic Brakes in GT WC but... Chevy engineers ensured that wouldn't happen. Just like the Brembo GT's in NASA, because "Brembo" is not made by the original equipment manufacturer, the 5.0's had to pay a point penalty for running GT's with that option. The Z06 in World Challenge as well as ALMS were made to remove the Carbon Ceramic Rotors regardless if it came from the factory or not... Here's the ALMS C6.R that was FORCED to use a 5.5 LS7 andcast iron rotors. I doubt the Z28 will be any different.

The C6.R is a Z06 basically. This is what the Z28 will have to do to race.

So there is hope right??? Wrong... First, a GT Camaro is going to be a full tube frame car since the 5th Gen is probably the worst platform to use competitively. Secondly, Chevy used disc brakes that are too large for legal use.

ALL RIGHT!!! CHEVY IS SO AWESOME!! They equipped the Z28 with 394x36mm front and 390x32mm rear brakes. Let's go back to the rule book and see what the maximum size is shall we.

Awwwwwwwwww!!!! The maximum size is 355x33mm but an exception of up to 380mm is allowed with a 100lbs weight penalty. Wow Mr. Engineer, kinda seems stupid to revisited the cost of those brakes on the customer, just so they can take them off OR, pack on an extra 100lbs. The customer has to pay for that weight loss in cash, now they have to take that weight back on putting them at SS curb weights. LOL!!!

Gentleman, this little article is on the money...

For those that want to spend money to make a fashion statement AND, for thousands of dollars, it's not worth the added cost... PERFECT!!! We shall continue to wait for Chevy to bring this up so customers don't make mistakes they are responsible for.

 

[thePill]

Why post a picture of a Z06? Because that is the Z28's main competitor hands down. I'm talking base Z06 and now that I'm talking "base", Chevy needs to consider an actual Z28 base car and offer a Z/28 as they advertise it now. There is strong indication that the Z28 will be over $60,000. There has been some intelligent banter about adding the cost of the equipment to a 1LE. Most that use that method puts the Z28 between $65,000 and $73,000... a handful approached $80,000 but I believe that was far too much.

Currently, there are almost 30 people employed to build LS7's. Another number worth writing down is 11,000. That's how many LS7's were built a year in it's prime. Back when the LS7 was still mainly unrestricted and Z06 production climaxed in 2007 with 8159. Today, with 29 people employed to build the LS7, only 1100 were last reported as the maximum output annually. The number employed was cut buy over half since 2011. In fact, lets look at the Z06's production numbers and see if we can identify a trend... We will get back to the Z06 vs.Z28 in a moment.

2006 - 6272
2007 -8159
2008 - 7731
2009 - 3461
2010 - 518
2011- 904
2012- 478

This is my favorite part of my pretend job... breaking hearts I originally predicted a total of FOUR HUNDRED and TWENTY SEVEN (427) 2014 Camaro Z28's will be produced. There are fewer people hand building LS7's this year than EVER before.

Two things are gonna happen...

1.) Mark-up on 2014 Z28's will range from $10,000 to $20,000: The Z28 will be compared to the Z06 in most media outlets. Chevy made a great car and now that's clear in the media's eyes, it will be cross shopped (and destroyed) with cars like the Z06 and GTR. Chevy WILL use the publicity of the Z28 "holding its own" as a marketing angle. That said... Chevy will let that publicity dictate the MSRP. On top of that... dealers are going to stack mark-ups on the MSRP as well :( Now the Z06 doesn't seem like such a bad idea... Sure, the GT500 will get shuffled in to some mass comparisons but, there won't be many GT500 vs.Z28 articles. The GT500 has a main competitor as does the Boss... Chevy didn't want to go head to head with the Mustang. They wanted to create another model level. One Ford didn't have........ YET. Besides, I think magazines are growing tired of putting both Boss 302 (out of production) and GT500 against an Army of Chevy's "NEW BEST CAMARO EVER". It use to be, if you didn't beat them, you came back next year with improvements. Now, once a Zxx is beaten, the name is disposed of as well as the car and their owners.

2.) Production numbers will be so low, the 427 Z28's produced will be bought and paid for, dealer mark-up and all, the instant the order books are opened. There are people that actually believe that Chevy has the ability to make 11,000 Z28's. The demand simply will NOT be there, especially while a Z06 looms overhead and is much more capable at the track than said Z28.

If you feel the Z28 has a chance against a Z06, you are in for a rude awakening... I feel an old Z06 has mountains of charm vs. a Z28. Track ability for sure... I don't need to watch Chevy's ringer.

 

[thePill]

...and the Mustang outsells the Camaro for the second straight month. The S197 also takes the annual sales lead by 700 deliveries. See how easy a blanket statement can be turned against you? The S197 is 10 years old and has earned the sales lead back from a product in it's infancy. The Camaro can't offer incentives, Chevy hasn't paid off the R&D yet. The Camaro needs to turn a profit before they start thinking about the 6th Gen. It took the S197 almost three years to start making profit. THEN, and only then did Ford start playing with special models, new engines and so on. The S197 had 482,000 deliveries at the time. Chevy has just passed the 350,000 mark in over 4 years of total production. Ford did it in almost 3 years (3-4 months shy I think) and had 132,000 more sales... Chevy hasn't paid for the 5th Gen yet, which is why there are NO incentives. Think about it... Nobody is buying them yet NO incentives. Incentives are MSRP adjustments NOT free money. Once R&D, initial cost of production and product merchandising are paid for, then the money gets put on the hood. Ford gives money back because you can't reduce the MSRP once it's set, the "cash back" is disguised as an incentive to attract attention.

The 5th Gen has been in constant upgrade since 2009. The initial program started in 2006. The concept cost money, no lie. The Transformers deal, the changes made to the OEM car vs. '06 concept, the LS3 went through some R&D in '06, the ZL1 was a 2 year testing cycle, the 1LE, COPO, FE4 suspension, Interior refresh, '14 exterior refresh, the Z28 on the Ring, the convertible was engineered after the coupe (weight was added and not accounted for), the vert top issue, the new V6 shared cost I believe and now the T4 refresh possibility and the 6th Gen after.

Chevy nor Ford does a refresh unless sales dictate. If Ford was sweatin' the S197 sales after almost 10 years, how do you think Chevy feels with a failing 3 year product? It's a shame the Camaro was mismanaged so...

...and again, Chevy is now masking production numbers due to the potential embarrassment of having 60,000 5th Gen's left unsold when the 2014 refresh was released. This is so sad the way major mismanagement can cripple a product. I know most of Chevrolet hate's the whole Pill avatar but, I am willing to help in important areas like this. Sometimes, you have to swallow your pride and admit "he was right". I frantically tried to push this message across. I specifically said "SHORTLY AFTER THE 3rd MODEL YEAR" and I even suggested that the 5th Gen would have to undergo a refresh due to failing sales late 2013. I suggested they release a 2013 Z28 in the original 5th Gen, then a 2014 with the new look to maximize sales. I didn't know they would skip the Z28 for the 1LE. The 1LE was probably another rejected Z28 as well as the ZL1. I also had no idea that they could destroy the 5th Gen with such accuracy as they did in the 2014. The T4 Bumblebee is the 2015-'16 Camaro. You won't see the 6th Gen until the Camaro's 50th Birthday on 29 September, 2016. The '15 will be released sooner... The Mustang could outsell the Camaro this year but it will be difficult when they start winding down to ramp up S550 production. I think the '14 is so bad, they may have to cut the '14 model year short. The '15 will come out the same time the 2015 Mustang does, maybe a bit sooner to build UP to the Mustang instead of just being plain old overshadowed. The 2016 will also be a short model year...

Who knows though... maybe Bumblebee is nothing. I hope it's something... because the 5th Gen can't sustain sales with it's current '14 styling... YUCK!!

 

[Red]

Pill -- I very much enjoy reading your posts. Well done.

 

[thePill]

Pill -- I very much enjoy reading your posts. Well done.

Thanks for reading! It's a huge payoff when people thank me for what I done. Again, thanks for reading and I hope you continue to read in the future.

I have been cruising the forums on the other side of the fence. I'm gonna have to pat myself on the back and give a little of my own praises on this. The whole site, section, threads and post containing anything Z28 has pretty much come to a screeching halt. There was quite a bit of topic chatter on said Z28 and for the most part, many of the posters had NO idea the Z28 was going to be confronted on this topic. I feel that most Z28 enthusiast had assumed that I was off my rocker or just trying to incite chaos. Here is the latest topic posted in the Z28 section.

Here's whats happening Chance and I hope your not angry with me. Keep in mind, I did not engineer the vehicle so I am not to blame. I'm not for certain if these details were overlooked by the engineers OR, if they were just pushed through as is, regardless of it's legal status. I'm not gonna sugar coat anything, bringing this engineering defect out to the public was the right thing to do. It was also a direct slap in the face... I certainly intended for it to be just that. The Z28 hasn't been talked about because everyone is in a state of confusion. Now, most are beginning to understand that the Z28 really isn't a good track option. You won't see too many public boast anymore in fear that they may publicly be confronted on the issue I detailed in this thread. The higher ups are reading this thread, and they know I am doing critical damage to their reputation and the Z28's marketing plan. The issue for them now is the Bumblebee Camaro and where that fascia is gonna end up. Once this issue was brought up, nobody felt the need to discuss the Z28 anymore. Instead, Automobile magazine has opted to do a full article on how great Scott Settlemire is (and he is awesome) and, new shots of the T4 Bumblebee has redirected most Z28 conversation to that topic. Leaving the more serious issue dead in the water...

You will never get a response from Chevy on this topic nor will you ever get a Z28 that is truly track ready. Once I put the spot light on the Z28, all conversation halted because, like I said, NOBODY knew...

It seems like 5th Gen's enthusiast are having their entire belief system collapse right from under their feet. Here's a list of the things going wrong on your side.

The ZL1 failed to dethrone the GT500
The 1LE being dominated by seven (7) Coyote GT's in SCCA T2
MSRP talk of the Z28
The Z28 is NOT permitted to race anywhere
The 5th Gen has lost control of the sales lead
The Boss 302 still remains dominant in ALL of it's classes
The 6th Gen will be heavier than desired
Low Z28 production numbers
The '14 refresh
The T4 Bumblebee possible '15 refresh

How did everything go so wrong? Well, for one, Camaro5 eliminated the negative feedback and put a stop to anything that didn't hold the product in the brightest of lights. I had laid out many of the upcoming issues with the ZL1 and for the information I provided (which ended up being 100% true), I was belittled and banned from the site permanently. IF the information I provided was left alone, so members could stress their displeasure to Chevy... Maybe some of the things your fan base is displeased with could have been altered prior to production to fit the needs of the fans. Instead, C5 protected Chevy's mistakes from the customer, in turn, those mistakes were dumped on them... After everyone had picked up a ZL1 and those issues arose, nobody... not a single Chevy employee or forum moderator said a single word. They merely highlighted the magazines that slightly favored the ZL1 as gospel. If you quote the winning magazine article enough, it does indeed come true. For it is the only fact known to them and the only one with their (your) approval. They trusted you and you did what 90% of people would do... you took advantage. That brings us to the Z28 and the fact that it cannot be entered/registered to race in a majority of organizations. Just communicating that to the customers is the right thing to do, regardless if you marketed the car as a "racer", "track car", "track ready" and so on. Don't let them do that to people.

But then again, whatever...they have your money already.... WHO CARES RIGHT?

I remember the days when someone from the other side had the courage to confront you on accusations like this. Unfortunately, sometimes it's just click, clack, click, click, click... checkmate...

 

[Falc'man]

Hey, Mr Pill.. much agree with Red, I enjoy the insight.

I thought of you when I saw this on TMS....

If Camaros are so good, and I'm not saying they ate not, why do you seldom see a Camaro at a track event. Subaru WRXs, Nissan GTRs, Porsches of all stripes and Corvettes, along with a multitude of Mustangs but seldom, if ever, is there a Camaro present. I guess the owners like the safety of stats and bench racing.

They're afraid of their airbags blowing up


[youtube]TpL4VwhYSE8[/youtube]

http://forums.themustangsource.com/f806/rumoured-power-outputs-15-a-521706/index18/#post6651202

 

[thePill]

Hey, Mr Pill.. much agree with Red, I enjoy the insight.

I thought of you when I saw this on TMS....




http://forums.themustangsource.com/f806/rumoured-power-outputs-15-a-521706/index18/#post6651202

Love TMS...

Air bags are a nightmare to tune... There are parameters that the CPU is listening for. There is a super fine line between deploy and not deploy.

I will be the first to admit that side airbag deployment is awful in the 5th Gen. Perhaps more than any other car ever produced... For Chevy to go back into the computer and alter those parameters would cost them a lot of money and, I'm not sure if they could tune that back.

The computer basically has three stages... Were gonna flip, were not gonna flip and we might flip... It's the "maybe" that's difficult to tune.

Thanks for the link though...

 

[Red]

thePill trying to incite chaos?! No way.

I've been reading your posts for the last week or two and find them logical and well organized -- not mention very entertaining. Keep 'em coming.

 

[thePill]

thePill trying to incite chaos?! No way.

I've been reading your posts for the last week or two and find them logical and well organized -- not mention very entertaining. Keep 'em coming.

The chaos of education There wouldn't be any argument if everyone had information concerning the topic. I will absolutely keep them coming. Although, the opposing side is terrified to post anything on the site right now. The truth is powerful... powerful enough to bring an entire site to silence. They won't confront the question head on so you won't likely see any of them defending the Z28 on here. There is just NO defense right now... Just think, if they wouldn't have banned me, they would be getting the S550 exclusives first... Just wait until I start getting 6th Gen details. They are gonna go RIGHT HERE _____________

Not much going on in the Z28 section... Did they think if they eliminated me from the site my influence wouldn't reach them there? You know what that is? a false sense of control. The silence that follows is reality slowing creeping back in.

 

[T-5 killer]

Wow great thread! Eye opening and amusing at the same time. It seems that "NEW GM" is just like "OLD GM". This whole thing reads like a chapter out of "Car Guys out of Bean Counters" http://www.amazon.com/Car-Guys-vs-Bean-Counters/dp/1591846226

So I would Imagine if someout pointed out these issues with the Z/28 on camaroburyyourheadinthesand5.com it would be deleted and a permaban would be issued? LOL

 

[Falc'man]

Well, today was the first time I've seen a Camaro on our roads... I was thinking "yay, it's going to transform", but after the hood went up that was all.

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