2014 Z28 Assault Thread.

[thePill]

I have been pondering the next installment of The Assault and I have come up with another talking point. We have discussed some of the legalities of professional motorsport and where the Z28 stands (or sits the bench in this case). We discussed some of the heritage that this Z28 and its new fans misinterpret on a regular basis. So, the next obvious angle here would be to compare the Z28 to the real Z28... in the 1LE.

I have to admit, I was initially impressed with the 1LE entry. In fact, last year I went to Beaver Run and watched the 1LE lap the now "Pittsburgh International". I believe the Runoff's were coming up and this would be the first 5th Gen runoff EVER. I get goosebumps when I go to Beaver Run, this track was responsible for ending my SCCA career (probably saved me some heartache and money)... Ironically, It was in a 3rd Gen Camaro . Anyway, the 1LE was here and it was about to compete with a few Coyote GT's. Phoenix and DWW were both running Coyote GT's in T2 last year. Now, I know this doesn't seem fair right? The 1LE handled the Boss 302LS in the last magazine test so, this shouldn't be an issue.

Initially, it wasn't a problem at all. The 1LE broke the track record on an open track by a decent margin (.312 I think). Although, track records are recorded during race conditions in traffic so, officially, it didn't. Here's a post by Don himself. FYI, the Boss 302 is sanctioned in T1 and competes with the Corvette GS. Don't ask me why Chevy chose to NOT challenge the Boss 302 but instead, pick on a GT... Then get its ass whooped anyway.

Hello to the Mustang forum members. This is my first time post.

I was fortunate to win the 2012 SCCA Runoffs in T2 in a 2011 Mustang GT, prepped by Phoenix Performance and set up by Andrew Aquilante.

The car is very competitive at Road America. I had run a Pontiac Solstice previously but the SCCA did not provide the competition adjustment needed to keep it competitive, so the Mustang was the car of choice.

We had a Ford racing suspension, with Penske shocks, on the car and Andrew did a great job with the basic suspension set up. We were able to turn the fastest lap in qualifying but had only the 4th fastest lap in the race--the Camaro SS was fastest, the Evo was second, and the 996 Porsche was third.

I look forward to connecting with the Mustang community through this forum and want to say the Mustang did a great job for us at Road America!

don

Here's the fun part... The 1LE finished a strong 2nd, it even ran the fastest lap at Road America after Pittsburgh but... It was beaten by a 5.0 GT. Not only that... It finished 25th overall in T2 nationally. I decided to get the numbers from a source close to the Camaro program and I noticed something ABSOLUTELY COMICAL... The T2 Camaro 1LE is indeed sanctioned in the SCCA as a Z28, this was from Chevy mind you, so, in their honest opinion, the Z28 is competing in the SCCA http://www.scca.com/events/news.cfm?eid=4516&cid=51162 Results at the bottom of the page.

I thought this to be a typo, so I dug into the official SCCA PDF and... as it appears, the 2013 1LE was sanctioned in the SCCA as a Z28 by Chevy. I even heard the announcement over the loud speaker at the track as if the Z28 was racing and had set the track record. What a joke... The Boss 302 (Not the Laguna Seca) finished 2nd in T1 behind a GS. T1 is primarily Corvettes and Vipers. Phoenix Racing also sponsors this vehicle with the suspension engineer driving. Isn't this where the 1LE should be? Not losing to a GT. I guess Chevy was correct on pricing this with the GT. The GT and 1LE are on equal grounds as far as performance and results go.

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/assets/2012RunoffsResults.pdf (Scroll to page 73, the Z28/1LE results are there, behind a Coyote)

The 1LE couldn't overthrow the GT in T2 and remember, Chevy claims and media boasting says that this is just NOT possible.... However, it happens on a weekly basis. Same thing is happening this year, only, the 1LE is not doing as well this year.

Another question to ask yourself, was Chevy intending on calling the 1LE a Z28? Here's a quote from Todd (1LE driver) about the rush to get the 1LE ready.

So we got this Camaro, we weren’t sure what we were going to do with it. When we heard the 1LE package was coming out we thought that would be a good project. We didn’t have a lot of time to get the project done and homologated with SCCA on our own, but the team at Chevrolet worked hard to get it homologated in time for us. We worked together on some of the things we thought were most important and they were able to push it through and get us the 1LE package for our car.

If the Z28 is sanctioned in SCCA, it is done so as a 6.2 equipped 1LE. This will cause HUGE issues for owners during registration and inspection. Could it mean that there will be an LS7 thrown into the SS/1LE with a reduced displacement like the 5.5 LS7? It would help with some of the LS7 restrictions but still leave a lot of prohibited equipment on the OEM car.

Lets go back and looked at what my major concern here is... and that is, releasing official track numbers even though the car can't reproduce the times. The 1LE was said to be 3-4 seconds faster than the Boss 302 Laguna Seca at most tracks it was compared. Sounds like a unified media stroke of the manhood to me...

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[thePill]

Ladies and Gentleman!

I give you the Destroyer of Z28... The 2016 GT350!!!

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=707

 

[Ricky35]

Ladies and Gentleman!

I give you the Destroyer of Z28... The 2016 GT350!!!

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=707

:hail::hail::hail::hail:

And then this news! http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4643#post4643

Icing on the cake.

 

[thePill]

And then this news! http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4643#post4643

Icing on the cake.

Yes, I hope whoever is in charge of marketing rethinks his Z28 strategy. You won't see much from the Z28 when the new Mustang comes out. While I have a strong feeling the GT350 won't see production until early '15, it would kill me to see the GT350 come out the same time the pig Z28 does. Doing what the Z28 wants to do only cheaper.

Like I said a few post ago in another thread... Base GT= 450+hp AND, the GT350 will be Ford's answer to the Z28... Although, Ford will sanction the GT350 in every eligible class and offer the car for less than $50k.

This is will get embarrassing for the Z28 fans... It's another ZL1 marketing disaster and Ford is there again to strangle baby Z28 in its crib, in front of its mother.

 

[Falc'man]

Base GT won't have that much power.

 

[thePill]

Base GT won't have that much power.

I would expect that with direct injection and even higher... It's possible the GT adopts the Boss 302 while the GT350 adopts a more "Aluminator XS" for now. That said, direct injection should be available by then...

 

[Falc'man]

I would expect that with direct injection

That's why it won't be that high (with MY2015).
It won't be using Roadrunner, either.

 

[thePill]

That's why it won't be that high (with MY2015).
It won't be using Roadrunner, either.

Thanks bud, It wasn't adding up without DI. It was always communicated the increase would be 450ish but it was never suggested it was with DI. Now that I think of it, It was I myself that assumed it was. I should have assumed better... How high the 'yote will go while maintaining MPG's and EPA standards.

 

[Falc'man]

 

[thePill]

The 2016 GT350 will likely be reverse engineered from Grand Am and maybe SCCA. The 2012-2013 Boss 302 was also done in this fashion during the 2011 season in Grand Am GS. Multimatic sponsored the car as well as provided the drivers. The original 1969 Boss 302 was also done exactly like this during the 1969 Trans Am series and went on to destroy the competition in 1970. The 2012 Boss also did well after it's maiden season with the most podium finishes, most 1st place finishes and nearly won the title. Major restrictions were placed on the Boss 302 mid-season and crippled the Boss (and M3). The Roush #61 did not finish the first race of the season at Daytona due to a collision. If they would have finished, they would have made up the 8 points that separated them from the leader. Regardless, the Boss 302 dominated SCCA World Challenge GTS with Paul Brown and Tiger Racing to win the championship.

If the GT350 is being reverse engineered, it's very possible Ford Racing has the budget. This is a good thing... Ford Racing will R&D the GT350, using real race conditions while lowering the cost. I am sure Ford Racing will use an upgraded version of the Coyote. I don't think the GT350 will be very successful during it's maiden season due to the engineering still going on but, stranger things have happened.


Now, on the other side of the pond. Chevy is engineering the Z28 in Milford and Nurburgring. It's my opinion that they should attempt to utilize motorsports to engineer the car. If they would have went this route from the beginning they would have noticed the equipment restrictions. Has anyone at Camaro5 asked why the Z28 was designed that way while they market it for something it can't do. Is no Camaro5 member brave enough to even bring it up? Why wouldn't the moderators insist that potential buyers are made aware? Should the fans stand for that kind of treatment?

Market the car as a race car? fine... However, Z28 enthusiast are genuinely excited about the car and what Team Camaro said it can do. Why mislead people like that?

I will say this now, Ford is designing the GT350 in real race conditions. A huge detail Chevy did not do with the Z28. Ford and Mr. Farley will ensure that everybody knows how much detail went into the GT350 while other guys "claim" the car is track ready.

Track ready isn't the fastest lap... It's the fastest lap over and over and over and over and over........ and winning when the flag waves and winning over and over and over again until someone puts a trophy in your hand... That is the Boss, that is the GT350... That's Ford Racing.

 

[MustangMarine]

I will say this now, Ford is designing the GT350 in real race conditions. A huge detail Chevy did not do with the Z28. Ford and Mr. Farley will ensure that everybody knows how much detail went into the GT350 while other guys "claim" the car is track ready.

Track ready isn't the fastest lap... It's the fastest lap over and over and over and over and over........ and winning when the flag waves and winning over and over and over again until someone puts a trophy in your hand... That is the Boss, that is the GT350... That's Ford Racing.

If the GT350 is really going to be 'reverse engineered' and have its engineering done via real race series, it's going to be one tough badass car.

And it sounds like the Z28 is going another route in its development which is going to be purely on the track and not in real world race conditions.

For me, it begs the question though whether GM can achieve the equally good results by closed track testing the Z28. I mean it could simply run the car lap after lap after lap to simulate race conditions. That could result in the car being 'track ready' also. Maybe GM just doesn't care that the Z28 can't run in certain race series, they just care about selling the car to the public and not race teams. Just playing devil's advocate here.

 

[thePill]

If the GT350 is really going to be 'reverse engineered' and have its engineering done via real race series, it's going to be one tough badass car.

And it sounds like the Z28 is going another route in its development which is going to be purely on the track and not in real world race conditions.

For me, it begs the question though whether GM can achieve the equally good results by closed track testing the Z28. I mean it could simply run the car lap after lap after lap to simulate race conditions. That could result in the car being 'track ready' also. Maybe GM just doesn't care that the Z28 can't run in certain race series, they just care about selling the car to the public and not race teams. Just playing devil's advocate here.

The Z28 is taking the media route and I'll explain why. You don't have to be up to date to know the 5th Gen's chassis is heavy. They just can't take any weight out of the car no matter what kind of lightweight material they bolt-on... the problem is in the sheet metal. The 5th Gen is cursed with weight so naturally the Z28 falls victim to physics as well. Another huge curve ball for them was Ford's ability to design a world class engine. Where does that leave them?

You could see the results in road racing way before the Z28 was let loose. Every OEM class that features the Mustang and Camaro shows the reality very clearly. The 6.2 in a 5th Gen is not capable over sustaining a winning season. Chevy seen this right from the beginning... If they have no logical answer to the Boss 302, then why compete at all. Let's make the ultimate, "untouchable" Camaro that's track ready. That sounds good until you find out you can't get enough weight out of the car. Once that was painfully clear, some MAJOR equipment was added to handle and stop the Z28 on demand. Sadly, the equipment they added eliminated the possibilities of the Z28 competing in road racing. FOREVER...

All they wanted was another opportunity to beat the GT500 decisively at a track... ANY TRACK... They'll take what they can get. The 2014 Z28 is constantly portrayed as a track ready, performance monster forged from the competitive sheet metal of the original. However, the only thing that's really fact is what ever performance numbers the Z06 laid down, the Z28 WON'T beat 'em. The car might be track ready and it's true it is probably very capable (as soon as they get it done), I'm not arguing that. What Chevy is pushing over in the Z28 marketing plan is being misinterpreted. It's easy for customers to fill in the blanks but on a site where employees and diehard Camaro fans represent FACT. Shouldn't someone explain to those forum members that what they are thinking is incorrect. A warning perhaps? It happens all the time with statements like "The Z28 doesn't have adjustable suspension" why doesn't the same person (who is involved in road racing) merely throw it out there?

"The Z28 isn't permitted in most road racing organization"... They deserve honesty at least, especially with the MSRP adjustments from Chevy recently. They didn't build the Z28 for a specific series, they didn't build it for any series... Although, that's what the original was built for. Why market the vehicle as the second coming when this car was developed completely opposite of what the original?

If the Z28 is mis-represented as a track car and falsely touted as the original, doesn't that make you call their performance claims into question? None of the ZL1's claims have been duplicated and even it's strip times were lacking... what makes anyone think the Z28 will be any different? Most Camaro5 members will take a single event (say a ZL1 breaking the 11's) and use it as the standard. Even if there were some alterations, it doesn't matter... Once they are lied to, they continue to believe it and support the notion mostly because of the embarrassment from being so wrong.

There will be very, very few people that find the Z28 useful. Only those that feel Scott built the car just for them...

 

[thePill]

Personally, I find it amusing C5 members haven't the courage to inquire about the Z28. If indeed the Z28 is a track-ready Camaro, isn't the legality in professional and amateur racing important? They would rather private message the moderators like cowards because they don't want thePill shovin' their foot in their mouths.

It's REAL quiet over there... I can sense the "He was right" silence that looms in every post. An occasional single sentence fragmented statement is all they can muster for an objection.

I love having power over that site... and all it's members... Of course I shouldn't need to drill holes in their skulls and place truth there. If Team Camaro would be honest about their failed and falsified endeavor, they might get some respect...

If not, I'm afraid I must continue with the drilling...

Remember... just be honest...

 

[thePill]

I'll give someone from Chevy a few hours to at least admit the oversight. Then I'm gonna start posting screen captures of the SCCA rulebook. The carbon ceramic brake restriction is written separately within each class set of rules so they will have to be posted one-by-one. The 285 front tire rule is class specific but effective around the only classes the Camaro is permitted in. The disc brake size restriction is also class specific...

So... eat some humble pie or I'll chew it up and spit it down your throat...

 

[Ricky35]

The 2016 GT350 will likely be reverse engineered from Grand Am and maybe SCCA. The 2012-2013 Boss 302 was also done in this fashion during the 2011 season in Grand Am GS. Multimatic sponsored the car as well as provided the drivers. The original 1969 Boss 302 was also done exactly like this during the 1969 Trans Am series and went on to destroy the competition in 1970. The 2012 Boss also did well after it's maiden season with the most podium finishes, most 1st place finishes and nearly won the title. Major restrictions were placed on the Boss 302 mid-season and crippled the Boss (and M3). The Roush #61 did not finish the first race of the season at Daytona due to a collision. If they would have finished, they would have made up the 8 points that separated them from the leader. Regardless, the Boss 302 dominated SCCA World Challenge GTS with Paul Brown and Tiger Racing to win the championship.

Can't wait to see the s550 start appearing in Grand Am! So no GT350 available for public customers until 2016?

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