Supercharger or Bolt-Ons First

[evo8904]

I'll have result soon with the Whipple kit.

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[pinero61]

I'm a turbo fan, but I don't like the kits available for the mustang, centri is the next best choice. Plus, much less heat than the other systems.

 

[beefcake]

Wow, I think you need to consider a bit more. With our years of partnership with Ford, supplying superchargers for all kits for nearly 12 years, supplying the Super CJ and CJ's superchargers and working directly with engineers in Ford to understand what can be done.

700RWHP with a proper tune is not squeaking every last HP. The piston and rod combo is not even close to its max level. It comes down to the supercharger kit design, as 700RWHP with a Roush setup will be asking for issues vs a system such as ours.

It then comes to the PCM calibration, our calibration engineer is far more advanced than any of the other tuners or calibration engineers around. The levels of research, testing and customization done is second to only Ford Motor Company. We set the standard on the 05-10 4.6L 3v, passing durability testing (nobody in aftermarket does), we first sent the kits out at 500hp over the stock 300. After the competition over 2 years started to creep up close, we upped the power to 550hp over the stock 300. This was on 100% stock vehicles, durability tested and 100,000+ mile reliability. That's nearly 83% more power. We are now dealing with 75% power increases and its more reliable then some of the systems with 50% power.

Guessing at what power level something is safe or not safe is irresponsible. So if 650 is safe, what happens when they run at 40deg F ambient temp and the motor makes 50hp more? is the motor going to explode? Is that irresponsible? Or should the PCM actually limit the power to stay within fuel injector, pump and cylinder pressure safety zones? Our's does.

Typically a screw supercharger is going to stress the pistons and rods more than most centri type superchargers. Most engines break at peak torque, not peak HP.

You guys make a great product and do a great job. Of course I'm going to disagree that your calibrator is far more advanced than any tuner as I believe Lund to be one of the best and smartest individuals in the business and I don't believe anyone to be "far more advanced" as I've watched him do some amazing things with every type of n/a and power adder combo.

I personally would never send a customer out on 91 at 700rwhp on one of these cars. Not to say it can't be done and work with the proper timing commanded.

I just wouldn't do it.

 

[bvdawg13]

supercharger and catback if I were to do it over again...although long tubes will be nice with a supercharger

 

[ProChargerTECH]

Dude.....change your tampon! I was just letting the guy know there is more than one option.

Apples to Apples: Right out of the box!

Procharger msrp $6099.00 @550rwhp
Whipple msrp $7295.00 @650rwhp

Not really, Not even Close.

Boost levels are not even remotely comparable.

8psi vs 10/11psi


PLEASE USE THE CORRECT MSRP!

The Whipple (650rwhp) as you state = MSRP $8295
7,295 System + $600 throttle body (and likely the dual fans + $400)

vs.

Our HO System = MSRP $6099

A difference of $2196 (not counting what "street" price of our system is)







We aren't posting some "GLORY" dyno pull on the internet.
Just posting factual data of what our customers get with our kits.

520-580rwhp has been made with 8psi HO systems on stock tuning **By our customers
598rwhp has been made with just 8psi on HO systems (custom tuned)
709rwhp has been made on 13psi pump gas (custom tuning)

With our entry level HO System!

So at the end of the day, remember we can easily remove the tuning from our system, save the customer money, and they have a kit ready to make BIG power numbers and still have money left over for axles, and tires.

Maybe once more STG2 cars get out there with 9psi, you will have a little more "fair" comparison to the higher 10/11psi boost numbers your claiming.
Yet still have a system priced far below any of competitors.

Reason for my Blue "**"
Are there any actual customer dyno runs at this 650rwhp level, with the stock supplied tuning and pump fuel?

Please don't refer me to the ONE video showing the 647rwhp dyno, that doesn't verify tuning/fuel and looks to be a company installed demo.
Nor the AmericanMuscle video where the car is on 116 octane fuel.

I don't follow their stuff so I am not "in the loop" I apologize in advance.

But I have been waiting like the rest of the internet on some numbers from pretty big install places, though neither of them are using stock tuning according to their posts on the internet/facebook

No power numbers from the Lethal Car (dyno video up since the 2nd) * Custom tuned
No power numbers from the JMS Chip Car (posted on the 5th) *Custom Tuned

Obviously hopefully more DIY installs will start popping up, since it seems plenty of people have the systems now.
Then we can see how many will run the 100% stock tuning, and Pump gas.

BUT UNTIL THEN, PLEASE STOP THE APPLES TO ORANGES COMPARISONS.

 

[Whipple SC]

Typically a screw supercharger is going to stress the pistons and rods more than most centri type superchargers. Most engines break at peak torque, not peak HP.

You guys make a great product and do a great job. Of course I'm going to disagree that your calibrator is far more advanced than any tuner as I believe Lund to be one of the best and smartest individuals in the business and I don't believe anyone to be "far more advanced" as I've watched him do some amazing things with every type of n/a and power adder combo.

I personally would never send a customer out on 91 at 700rwhp on one of these cars. Not to say it can't be done and work with the proper timing commanded.

I just wouldn't do it.

No question peak cylinder pressure is at peak torque but its very unlikely anyone is towing trailers with a mustang so one goes through peak torque rather quickly. Truck applications are detuned some for this very reason. One can't even maintain boost going up a long grade, we have plenty around here that we test on. The power to weight is so great, you can't maintain throttle unless you are on a salt flat or running on a test track like Hennessey did going 195 and climbing.... Since we've worked with OEM engineers, we know that 700RWHP is not an issue on piston and rod unless you detonate or run high EGT and cat temps. Therefore timing, airfuel and proper safety margins are all part of the equation to make one work.

Lund is great, but this is a different level. We've always set the standard, were using dual IAT's, not one, tuner kits don't, PC, Vortech, Paxton.... don't, therefore we have temp differential since there both critical. Since this is a torque based module, were not manipulating the torque tables, but predicting with proper supercharger, bypass, intercooler, manifold, throttle body and maf models. While I would love to explain some of the new adaptive logic and fail safes, I have to wait just a bit longer so nobody tries to copy it.

 

[Guard5.0]

I spent a lot of time doing SC research for my car. Finally settled on the Roush. Do I think it's better than the others, no. There's actually a couple of features with it I don't like but the tuner I work with has more experience with it which makes both them and I more comfy. If I was building a max HP car I would probably start with a serious short block internal upgrade or just sell it and start with a decent aftermarket block like a Dart. But these SC threads do make for good reading!

 

[ProChargerTECH]

were using dual IAT's, not one, tuner kits don't, PC, Vortech, Paxton.... don't,

We don't have to,...
Since we have an Air-to-Air intercooler, and thus our temp reading is AFTER our intercooler.

You HAVE to have two,...
Or at least relocate yours due to the placement of your water to air intercooler.

I have no issues with you posting the facts, however us only having to use one IAT sensor is NOT a disadvantage to our system.

No point in talking about how these OEM computers work and the tuning used in them. Its actually quite simple on these Ford products in reality, or any new modern OEM car for that matter. They are just doing a much better job these days of building BOOST friendly ECU's and Calibrations out of the gate. I mean active knock sensors and wide bands, its child's play compared to 10 years ago. Back in the day it was hours or dyno time and reading plugs, now its the age of "mail order tuning" for crazy high HP cars.

Its a great time to be "Hot Rodding" with the amazing technology. Not to mention how awesome these cars are coming out of the OEM's. We are all very lucky right now.

 

[Whipple SC]

Not really, Not even Close.

Boost levels are not even remotely comparable.

8psi vs 10/11psi


PLEASE USE THE CORRECT MSRP!

The Whipple (650rwhp) as you state = MSRP $8295
7,295 System + $600 throttle body (and likely the dual fans + $400)

vs.

Our HO System = MSRP $6099

A difference of $2196 (not counting what "street" price of our system is)







We aren't posting some "GLORY" dyno pull on the internet.
Just posting factual data of what our customers get with our kits.

520-580rwhp has been made with 8psi HO systems on stock tuning **By our customers
598rwhp has been made with just 8psi on HO systems (custom tuned)
709rwhp has been made on 13psi pump gas (custom tuning)

With our entry level HO System!

So at the end of the day, remember we can easily remove the tuning from our system, save the customer money, and they have a kit ready to make BIG power numbers and still have money left over for axles, and tires.

Maybe once more STG2 cars get out there with 9psi, you will have a little more "fair" comparison to the higher 10/11psi boost numbers your claiming.
Yet still have a system priced far below any of competitors.

Reason for my Blue "**"
Are there any actual customer dyno runs at this 650rwhp level, with the stock supplied tuning and pump fuel?

Please don't refer me to the ONE video showing the 647rwhp dyno, that doesn't verify tuning/fuel and looks to be a company installed demo.
Nor the AmericanMuscle video where the car is on 116 octane fuel.

I don't follow their stuff so I am not "in the loop" I apologize in advance.

But I have been waiting like the rest of the internet on some numbers from pretty big install places, though neither of them are using stock tuning according to their posts on the internet/facebook

No power numbers from the Lethal Car (dyno video up since the 2nd) * Custom tuned
No power numbers from the JMS Chip Car (posted on the 5th) *Custom Tuned

Obviously hopefully more DIY installs will start popping up, since it seems plenty of people have the systems now.
Then we can see how many will run the 100% stock tuning, and Pump gas.

BUT UNTIL THEN, PLEASE STOP THE APPLES TO ORANGES COMPARISONS.

Sorry, your kit does not make 709RWHP out of the box, that's custom tuning and pulley changes.... If it did, you would advertise that. You advertise 550rwhp. Were making 730-750rwhp with 13psi. I agree the PC kit and our kit can make pretty equal power at equal boost, but be careful when your trying to slam something you know little about, as you stated, you don't "follow" us.

Our kit out of the box makes 650+rwhp, no custom tuning, no exhaust changes, no pulley changes, zero mods. Bolt on, drive away. Your stage 1 kit makes 550 (per your info) out of the box. If you want to custom tune, LT's, exhaust then sky is the limit..... We've got one that just made 723rwhp on 93 octane and LT, same everything as our knock logic is far superior and can optimize spark.

Also, the dual fans do not make more power, they hold power more consistent. You know, like how the air to air lacks from poor efficiency with limited airflow, or severely limited to ambient temp. The same concept with the LTR on a air to water, need airflow to maintain. The difference is the water takes much longer to warm up and the fans hold the temp cooler longer during aggressive driving.

As for power numbers, American Muscle, 687rwhp (on 93, not 116). Lethal 7...rwhp (article coming next week). When you run 116, power is closer to 785 as you can optimize spark with the same boost. Do you know what timing that is? We do, its not MBT.

Now as for "glory runs". Get over yourself and your crusade to persuade some from reality.....PC makes a nice system and we respect that, but your little rant has little merit.

 

[Whipple SC]

We don't have to,...
Since we have an Air-to-Air intercooler, and thus our temp reading is AFTER our intercooler.

You HAVE to have two,...
Or at least relocate yours due to the placement of your water to air intercooler.

I have no issues with you posting the facts, however us only having to use one IAT sensor is NOT a disadvantage to our system.

No point in talking about how these OEM computers work and the tuning used in them. Its actually quite simple on these Ford products in reality, or any new modern OEM car for that matter. They are just doing a much better job these days of building BOOST friendly ECU's and Calibrations out of the gate. I mean active knock sensors and wide bands, its child's play compared to 10 years ago. Back in the day it was hours or dyno time and reading plugs, now its the age of "mail order tuning" for crazy high HP cars.

Its a great time to be "Hot Rodding" with the amazing technology. Not to mention how awesome these cars are coming out of the OEM's. We are all very lucky right now.

Not running 2 means you have no ambient base, a key element to a torque based system is the temp in vs the temp out. The Ecoboost run 3, inlet, pre IC and post IC. We add, we don't relocate. You just relocate. While having just one post is better than not one at all, having pre and post is the proper way and gives us significant calibration advantages.

Even when our system clips if your at 99% inj DC, we can maintain the power through the RPM, meaning you can put a 15psi pulley on over flow the fuel system, yet the PCM will just adapt and hold the power curve so it stays within a safe limit. A PC or other aftermarket tunes will just burn up in the same scenario.

No question its an amazing time for hot rodders and I truly believe there is a market for all.

 

[evo8904]

Sorry, your kit does not make 709RWHP out of the box, that's custom tuning and pulley changes.... If it did, you would advertise that. You advertise 550rwhp. Were making 730-750rwhp with 13psi. I agree the PC kit and our kit can make pretty equal power at equal boost, but be careful when your trying to slam something you know little about, as you stated, you don't "follow" us.

Our kit out of the box makes 650+rwhp, no custom tuning, no exhaust changes, no pulley changes, zero mods. Bolt on, drive away. Your stage 1 kit makes 550 (per your info) out of the box. If you want to custom tune, LT's, exhaust then sky is the limit..... We've got one that just made 723rwhp on 93 octane and LT, same everything as our knock logic is far superior and can optimize spark.

Also, the dual fans do not make more power, they hold power more consistent. You know, like how the air to air lacks from poor efficiency with limited airflow, or severely limited to ambient temp. The same concept with the LTR on a air to water, need airflow to maintain. The difference is the water takes much longer to warm up and the fans hold the temp cooler longer during aggressive driving.

As for power numbers, American Muscle, 687rwhp (on 93, not 116). Lethal 7...rwhp (article coming next week). When you run 116, power is closer to 785 as you can optimize spark with the same boost. Do you know what timing that is? We do, its not MBT.

Now as for "glory runs". Get over yourself and your crusade to persuade some from reality.....PC makes a nice system and we respect, that, but your little rant has little merit.

I can't wait to see what the Whipple kit makes on my setup. I hope to have the results next week. I'm having kooks headers and catback with off road pipes installed at the same time. I will be getting a custom tune also. However, I did keep the stock TB.

 

[Whipple SC]

I can't wait to see what the Whipple kit makes on my setup. I hope to have the results next week. I'm having kooks headers and catback with off road pipes installed at the same time. I will be getting a custom tune also. However, I did keep the stock TB.

Change the TB......

Stock electronics, idles like stock, massive power gain

 

[evo8904]

Change the TB......

Stock electronics, idles like stock, massive power gain

This is just my first phase. I'm trying yo crack 700rwhp with the stock TB but its on a mustang dyno. Next I will get the better TB and up the pulley while adding meth injection. I don't have E85 pumps near me.

 

[caustin69]

Anyone ever wondered why most all auto manufactures that add factory superchargers don't use centrifugal style blowers?

 

[JoeDogInKC]

Sorry, your kit does not make 709RWHP out of the box, that's custom tuning and pulley changes.... If it did, you would advertise that.

Nowhere did they say that. In fact, he stated exactly what you did, that it was running at 13PSI (pulley change) and a custom tune, and on regular pump gas.

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