274 vs 285 vs brushless

[beefcake]

Fore is pretty much the standard for these and they do an amazing job, you can still drive the car down to 0, i've done it personally on my hellion car. Trying to get as few a stops as possible on our way to the race in georgia, I literally coasted into the gas station at 0 miles to E.

WE don't normally go wide open blasts below 1/4 tank, but in general you just drive the car like you normally would

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[Angrey]

Fore is pretty much the standard for these and they do an amazing job, you can still drive the car down to 0, i've done it personally on my hellion car. Trying to get as few a stops as possible on our way to the race in georgia, I literally coasted into the gas station at 0 miles to E.

WE don't normally go wide open blasts below 1/4 tank, but in general you just drive the car like you normally would

We've accepted "race car life" as the answer for too long. I equate this to someone saying "you can have the suspension stiff and high performing or you can have it soft and ride compliant, but you can't have both." Then someone comes along and develops magnetorheological dampeners that can be controlled and tuned and now you don't have to beat your kidneys to death 100% of the time and can adjust the ride and suspension quality.

At one time, someone said "you can have high performance camshafts that flow really well, or you can have low rpm driveability, power and street manners, but you can't have both." Then someone developed variable cam timing.

Brushed, naked pump fuel systems are outdated. They're tried and true, but you can have it all now and not only is it not a significant cost increase, the prices are coming down on brushed systems that replicate the functionality of a surge tank for use and full capability in all conditions.

I want a car that makes an ass load of sauce and I want to be able to drive it like an old woman or a maniac whenever I want, and not just when I have 1/2 a tank or more. No need to compromise anymore.

 

[beefcake]

We've accepted "race car life" as the answer for too long. I equate this to someone saying "you can have the suspension stiff and high performing or you can have it soft and ride compliant, but you can't have both." Then someone comes along and develops magnetorheological dampeners that can be controlled and tuned and now you don't have to beat your kidneys to death 100% of the time and can adjust the ride and suspension quality.

At one time, someone said "you can have high performance camshafts that flow really well, or you can have low rpm driveability, power and street manners, but you can't have both." Then someone developed variable cam timing.

Brushed, naked pump fuel systems are outdated. They're tried and true, but you can have it all now and not only is it not a significant cost increase, the prices are coming down on brushed systems that replicate the functionality of a surge tank for use and full capability in all conditions.

I want a car that makes an ass load of sauce and I want to be able to drive it like an old woman or a maniac whenever I want, and not just when I have 1/2 a tank or more. No need to compromise anymore.

Again, you don't need a half tank, and even with a "brushless pump", if i'm at 30 miles to e, i'm not making wot blasts in a 1000hp car..

i think some people over exaggerate.

again, we built a brand new car with 1000 wheel. 4300 lb bagged, body kit 2017 mustang.

finished the car, put it on the road 8.5 hours to atlanta to race and drive each way. Thats what we do is build "street cars". i drove the car down to literally 0 miles to e, had nothing to do with the fuel system, had to do with trying to stretch to the next gas station for limited stops, and there wasn't another station for 60 miles, and i got "caught",

you can run the systems down to 0 to e just like any other system. we just tell guys to not go "wot" at high hp below 1/4 tank

 

[Magony15]

The Radium hat is tall and skinny, has 2 one way check valves, and will do a better job of keeping fuel in and around the pumps.

That's if they are not blocked. The bulky pre-filters block one of them from opening and the other will get stuck open by the crossover tube inside the bucket. I tested it before I dropped it into the tank.

 

[Angrey]

Again, you don't need a half tank, and even with a "brushless pump", if i'm at 30 miles to e, i'm not making wot blasts in a 1000hp car..

i think some people over exaggerate.

again, we built a brand new car with 1000 wheel. 4300 lb bagged, body kit 2017 mustang.

finished the car, put it on the road 8.5 hours to atlanta to race and drive each way. Thats what we do is build "street cars". i drove the car down to literally 0 miles to e, had nothing to do with the fuel system, had to do with trying to stretch to the next gas station for limited stops, and there wasn't another station for 60 miles, and i got "caught",

you can run the systems down to 0 to e just like any other system. we just tell guys to not go "wot" at high hp below 1/4 tank

The brushless isn't affectual to the fuel level, but it's less draw on the electrical system (which is a concern for those of us already having issues with additional IC pumps, fuel systems, stereo, etc).
Furthermore, it's true variable, much more robust (brushes get corrupted and wear out). I have several friends with high HP builds and one of them has already gone through 2 burnt 285 pumps in less than 3 years.

To argue that brush motors aren't obsolete would be foolish. It's curious why it's taken the automotive industry and pump manufacturers this long to get on board, ESPECIALLY when you consider the extra chemical attack on the brushes from E85 and alcohol blend fuels.

No one buys brush style motors for small hand tools anymore, because they're junk. The entire cordless tool industry has migrated to brushless motors and unless you're buying cheap Wal Mart junk, it's in the way rear view mirror. It's high time we pursued brushless motors and controllers. They draw less, and last longer.

Again, some of this is obscure, but it's high time we quit accepting outdated stuff. The market has and is responding.

I want to be able to drive from Miami to Orlando and I don't want to limit my right foot when the tank goes below 1/2 tank. Is that an obscure issue? Sure, but if we can solve it why shouldn't we?

 

[Angrey]

That's if they are not blocked. The bulky pre-filters block one of them from opening and the other will get stuck open by the crossover tube inside the bucket. I tested it before I dropped it into the tank.

I'm running a pre filter sock and it's not an issue (on two pumps). The newer style has the bladder valve, the older Radium buckets have the ball check valve.

 

[illtal]

That's if they are not blocked. The bulky pre-filters block one of them from opening and the other will get stuck open by the crossover tube inside the bucket. I tested it before I dropped it into the tank.

I would put them (the pump & filter) with at least 5 MM of space from the bottom, they don't need to touch the bottom.

 

[Ph363]

Who is tuning for you guys? I want all of the advancements that pcmtec brings to tuning but none of those guys wanted to mess with radium.

I understand that half of that is maintaining the ability to turn tunes around as quickly as possible, but when they are all aligned, I give pause. What are your experiences with pressure spikes and inconsistent regulation when boost referenced? Are you running deadhead with on hat regulation or return style with a remote regulator? Do you have heat issues with dual 285's?

I completely agree with statements about brushed pumps. This is ancient stuff and there is no reason for the industry to drag its feet in going pwm or even vfd. Cost is nearly a wash at this point.

 

[illtal]

Who is tuning for you guys? I want all of the advancements that pcmtec brings to tuning but none of those guys wanted to mess with radium.

I understand that half of that is maintaining the ability to turn tunes around as quickly as possible, but when they are all aligned, I give pause. What are your experiences with pressure spikes and inconsistent regulation when boost referenced? Are you running deadhead with on hat regulation or return style with a remote regulator? Do you have heat issues with dual 285's?

I completely agree with statements about brushed pumps. This is ancient stuff and there is no reason for the industry to drag its feet in going pwm or even vfd. Cost is nearly a wash at this point.

What should they care what you run? all they need for it to be is a return and get the correct amount of fuel flow. PCMtec is offered by Lund and Shoemaker probably a few others, but I haven't heard those two offer the CANBUS Flex fuel solution that they (PCMTec) pioneered.

I know wengred will tune any setup as long as it performs as expected.

 

[Timbuck]

Sorry for the thread hijack….. mods move to own thread maybe ?? Brushless pumps set ups DIY. ??

Elixir brushless pumps.

I stumbled across these guys a few months ago at a roll race event as a few cars I saw where running them.
Hard to argue with results on there FB page and also clicking on companies who use this product man some pretty good cars running there stuff.

https://www.facebook.com/ElixirPowered/


for me , I like simple. The whole idea for running a bunch of brushed pumps and drawing a million amps doesn’t get me exited. I’m from the RC world where brushed motors left the chat 20 years ago. had a good chat with my father last week ( electronic engineer) we where discussing idea‘s about controlling brushless pump speed via MAP or 0-5v from throttle pedal.
‘this can be easily done with right set up.
I emailed DW to discuss options and they don’t have any , but agreed on an RC controler greater than 30 amps would be fine. So there lays an option.
I haven’t emailed fuelab yet , they have a few good options that would be considered for sure , that might even work fine with 5v type signal.

back to Elixir pumps.
here….. http://www.insightmotorsportsdirect.com.au/fuel-pumps/

im yet to email them and ask for some data on pumps , controllers , fact sheets etc.

take their 700LPH set up $1000 usd …. Probably Good for 1000hp ?
or event run twin 500lph pump set up for $334 usd each ??? For 1000LPH delivery that’s getting pretty cheap , that’s more than most of us need.

the efficiency of the system is what wins me , cars making 1000hp with the 700LPH and running 90 psi fuel pressure , 13.5V and drawing only 13 AMPS.

what is there to argue about ??? Not much really , so lets just find solutions

for me , I think I’d like to run an under car surge tank and stock pump feeding that. At the roll racing events I got to 90% of all cars run surge tanks. I’m new to the mustang world and I’m kind of Surprised its not common practice like a lot of other saddle fuel tank type cars. so many cars I see have under bonnet or under front guard small surge tanks.
too me it just seems a more reliable, simple way for having great fuel delivery all the time in any condition and any fuel tank level. I feel there is a lot of…..triple pumps for bust… type of pressure on here Or why you trying to save money of fuel system…..
it’s not just about that. Why deliver 1000LPH for fuel at 100 amps , when it might be possible to do it cheaper and possibly more reliable to do it with a simple Brushless system.

anyway just food for thought and discussion.


cheers

tim

 

[illtal]

Sorry for the thread hijack….. mods move to own thread maybe ?? Brushless pumps set ups DIY. ??

Elixir brushless pumps.

I stumbled across these guys a few months ago at a roll race event as a few cars I saw where running them.
Hard to argue with results on there FB page and also clicking on companies who use this product man some pretty good cars running there stuff.

https://www.facebook.com/ElixirPowered/


for me , I like simple. The whole idea for running a bunch of brushed pumps and drawing a million amps doesn’t get me exited. I’m from the RC world where brushed motors left the chat 20 years ago. had a good chat with my father last week ( electronic engineer) we where discussing idea‘s about controlling brushless pump speed via MAP or 0-5v from throttle pedal.
‘this can be easily done with right set up.
I emailed DW to discuss options and they don’t have any , but agreed on an RC controler greater than 30 amps would be fine. So there lays an option.
I haven’t emailed fuelab yet , they have a few good options that would be considered for sure , that might even work fine with 5v type signal.

back to Elixir pumps.
here….. http://www.insightmotorsportsdirect.com.au/fuel-pumps/

im yet to email them and ask for some data on pumps , controllers , fact sheets etc.

take their 700LPH set up $1000 usd …. Probably Good for 1000hp ?
or event run twin 500lph pump set up for $334 usd each ??? For 1000LPH delivery that’s getting pretty cheap , that’s more than most of us need.

the efficiency of the system is what wins me , cars making 1000hp with the 700LPH and running 90 psi fuel pressure , 13.5V and drawing only 13 AMPS.

what is there to argue about ??? Not much really , so lets just find solutions

for me , I think I’d like to run an under car surge tank and stock pump feeding that. At the roll racing events I got to 90% of all cars run surge tanks. I’m new to the mustang world and I’m kind of Surprised its not common practice like a lot of other saddle fuel tank type cars. so many cars I see have under bonnet or under front guard small surge tanks.
too me it just seems a more reliable, simple way for having great fuel delivery all the time in any condition and any fuel tank level. I feel there is a lot of…..triple pumps for bust… type of pressure on here Or why you trying to save money of fuel system…..
it’s not just about that. Why deliver 1000LPH for fuel at 100 amps , when it might be possible to do it cheaper and possibly more reliable to do it with a simple Brushless system.

anyway just food for thought and discussion.


cheers

tim

for the cost of those you could get stuff here from the big venders for less. The 700 LPH option is 1500 and the DW810 setup for 600 you can get TWO of them and still be under the one cost of one of those.

The issue with brushed setups is they tend to need replacing if you aren't PWMing them. Lots of us don't have Race Only cars and it's quite a hassle to make sure all the pumps are working every time you want to get in the car.

Even more of a hassle to replace them x2 times a year.

 

[Timbuck]

Im in Australia BTW. That’s an Ozzy website. $1500 AUD= 1002.90 USD
another reason why I think it’s worth looking into. Some of the best leading fuel systems available are $3000 AUD + shipping.

yeah I really like the 810 it would be perfect for my application , thats why I contacted DW about it. They just don’t have a controller to do the job we need. 100% worth looking into further, simple 100 amp RC controller would do it Pretty easy They all run on 5v signal Control.

 

[Angrey]

Fuelab developed the mos elegant method for controlling the pumps a while ago. They patented it.

What are you really trying to control? Flow. So anything other than measuring the flow and indexing the pump output is an indirect or workaround.

Pressure, throttle position, rpm, air load. It can all be done through the tune, but what your really trying to do is ensure the proper flow and pressure at the rails.

The Fuelab electronic regulator is brilliant. It simply measures the amount of flow using a transducer on the return line. When the flow increases, the regulator tells the pumps to slow, when the flow decreases, it tells the pumps to speed up. The actual tune of the motor is now no longer involved. The tuner simply mechanically sets the base pressure (with a 1:1 vacuum referenced boost ramp) and that's it. The rails always have base pressure + boost. When the motor starts to drink more and the rails draw more fuel, the return line starts to drop and the pumps increase duty. When they go back toward idle, the return line flow stacks up and the regulator slows the pumps.

Brilliant. Elegant. Tuning at that point is simplified to injector duty.

But as you might have discovered, it takes a tuner willing to try new things. Before MOTEC I had made 1100 rwhp using HPT based tuning with ZERO control of the fuel pumps via the tune/computer. Efficient and effective.

The MOTEC M150 now controls the pump duty cycle. Now the fuel pressure regulator simply reverts back to a traditional regulator.

 

[Timbuck]

Not trying to do anything but learn atm.

yeah just interested in a way to control brushless motor speed.
gives you the ability of having the fuel pump working at variable speeds , 25% , 50% and then 100% under boost…. Fuel regulator pressure controlled via Boost curve. Maybe 15psi.
controling the speed via 0 to 5V. Maybe from TPS , MAP or throttle pedal Etc
or maybe just add a Honeywell pressure Sensor with 5v signal , then manifold pressure will control pump speed , fuel reg will take care of the rest.


electronic fuel reg is interesting Thanks.

This is what I like about the fuelab controller. Pic attached

 

[illtal]

Not trying to do anything but learn atm.

yeah just interested in a way to control brushless motor speed.
gives you the ability of having the fuel pump working at variable speeds , 25% , 50% and then 100% under boost…. Fuel regulator pressure controlled via Boost curve. Maybe 15psi.
controling the speed via 0 to 5V. Maybe from TPS , MAP or throttle pedal Etc
or maybe just add a Honeywell pressure Sensor with 5v signal , then manifold pressure will control pump speed , fuel reg will take care of the rest.


electronic fuel reg is interesting Thanks.

This is what I like about the fuelab controller. Pic attached

So I have Fuelab 496 pumps, all you need to do is use a 0-5VDC Map Sensor, For me, I use a 1 bar map sensor, once the controllers sense ANY boost, you get full power (Pump Speed) from the pumps. This pretty much ensures that the engine will never be starved for fuel.

Now they have new controllers that can do Either PWM input or 0-5VDC Input.

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