For the MT owners: how do you downshift?

[Turbo Ghost]

19 pages of downshifting talk?

Jesus.

Just man handle the damn thing.

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[mikeyjobu]

19 pages of downshifting talk?

Jesus.

Just man handle the damn thing.

But wait, there's more!

 

[Norm Peterson]

19 pages of downshifting talk?

Jesus.

Just man handle the damn thing.

Just manhandling the damn thing is probably responsible for as much of the MT-82's fragile reputation as anything else.


Norm

 

[Old 5 Oh]

I was taught to double-clutch when I was well under 16. Still do it all the time, out of habit. Maybe it's harder on the clutch. I don't really care. It's fun, it sounds cool, it makes the downshifts smooth and I don't really know how to do it any other way.

 

[Horse]

Sorry for bring back this old thread (and some other old threads actually).

Now, with me driving a S550 V8 (even though I bought a V6), I can confirm it is difficult to heel-toe. (When I was test driving the V6, it seemed a bit better, maybe b/c the brake pedals on V6 are covered with plastic/rubber and thus less slippery then the metal covers on V8?)

 

[mikeyjobu]

After 7000 miles, I'm still feeling this car out, still observing things, still making adjustments to my driving, and still no modifications to the car. My rev matching is still getting better, but until that is perfect, I'm not worrying about heel-toeing - pretty useless where I live. I've been doing more double-clutch up shifting - helps with a cold transmission, and helps getting into 3rd at high rpm. All that said this is/was a controversial thread.

 

[Horse]

:cheers:Not trying to start an argument, just my observation/comment: Now, without heel/toe available in my bag of skills, I feel awkward when slowing down and making a turn. With my old car, in these situation, I would do heel/toe while slowing down thus the car is always in (proper) gear. But now (with mustang), I have to do it like before I learned heel/toe, which (now) makes me feel that something is missing. If you ask me, I will say h/t is useful in daily driving.

Once your learn h/t you will appreciated more, and will miss it in situations where your car doesn't allow you to do it.

:cheers:

 

[mikeyjobu]

I used to in my Beetle 20 years ago. I know what you mean in the Mustang slowing down - still not much use around here - I have to look for roads that would make use of it. My civic just doesn't get upset by much, and gas mileage notwithstanding, is not a performance car in any respect. I got spoiled by that vintage Beetle/Porche pedal placement, the gas hinged on the floor - it was so easy to get my foot across the pedals, and those crappy drum brakes needed a lot of force - no disruption from blips of throttle. The Mustang is the single most sensitive car I've driven from a weight-shift standpoint: so much brake, and so much throttle response - very easy to upset the car with too much of either. Whether intended or not, you are starting an argument. It's cool - it's not like I'm wrong in the assessment of my driving environment. It just like the droves of people baiting me to race them - I'm just not interested in that level of stupidity on public roads.

 

[Old 5 Oh]

I do it out of habit but it's a synchro trans and wont hurt a thing.

^^^ Me, too. I double clutch just because it's fun and I have been doing it for 45 years.

 

[Horse]

I used to in my Beetle 20 years ago. I know what you mean in the Mustang slowing down - still not much use around here - I have to look for roads that would make use of it. My civic just doesn't get upset by much, and gas mileage notwithstanding, is not a performance car in any respect. I got spoiled by that vintage Beetle/Porche pedal placement, the gas hinged on the floor - it was so easy to get my foot across the pedals, and those crappy drum brakes needed a lot of force - no disruption from blips of throttle. The Mustang is the single most sensitive car I've driven from a weight-shift standpoint: so much brake, and so much throttle response - very easy to upset the car with too much of either. Whether intended or not, you are starting an argument. It's cool - it's not like I'm wrong in the assessment of my driving environment. It just like the droves of people baiting me to race them - I'm just not interested in that level of stupidity on public roads.

Let's call it exchange of ideas and sharing of experiences. Indeed, people living in different areas with different driving environments may have different views on how they drive. :cheers:

 

[Norm Peterson]

:cheers:Not trying to start an argument, just my observation/comment: Now, without heel/toe available in my bag of skills, I feel awkward when slowing down and making a turn. With my old car, in these situation, I would do heel/toe while slowing down thus the car is always in (proper) gear. But now (with mustang), I have to do it like before I learned heel/toe, which (now) makes me feel that something is missing. If you ask me, I will say h/t is useful in daily driving.

Once your learn h/t you will appreciated more, and will miss it in situations where your car doesn't allow you to do it.

:cheers:

You do realize that you can double-clutch and rev-match a downshift before you're actually in the corner and without ever having to be on the brake and the accelerator at the same time? It's very easy to do this in normal street driving even with traffic behind you (that may or may not be paying you much attention).

True heel-toe would be a nice skill to have on the track, and I can clearly see on the datalogs where I'd personally benefit by being able to do this. But the likely consequences of spiking the brakes while practicing in street driving with what are already pads with far better initial bite is too great. Too much risk of inadvertently H-T'ing with too much brake when it might clearly be the wrong thing to be doing. On the track, everybody knows that braking is going to be hard and that they're going to be on their brakes hard anyway (but if you screw up there while trying to learn, it could end up being an even more expensive lesson).


Norm

 

[Horse]

You do realize that you can double-clutch and rev-match a downshift before you're actually in the corner and without ever having to be on the brake and the accelerator at the same time? It's very easy to do this in normal street driving even with traffic behind you (that may or may not be paying you much attention).

True heel-toe would be a nice skill to have on the track, and I can clearly see on the datalogs where I'd personally benefit by being able to do this. But the likely consequences of spiking the brakes while practicing in street driving with what are already pads with far better initial bite is too great. Too much risk of inadvertently H-T'ing with too much brake when it might clearly be the wrong thing to be doing. On the track, everybody knows that braking is going to be hard and that they're going to be on their brakes hard anyway (but if you screw up there while trying to learn, it could end up being an even more expensive lesson).


Norm

Yes, I am also practicing turning with double-clutch downshift. But my double-clutch downshifts are usually done such that the speed does not drop (b/c I like to match the rpm as close as possible), even though the engine braking at lower gears should drag the car down some. So I still feel the need to touch the brake. Maybe I can try to mix brakes and d-c downshifts together (call it poor man's heel-toe).

With the pedal set-up on mustang, I can see this is more for the track than street. With my old car, the brake and gas pedals are at the same distance from the driver and the brake also has some free-play on top, all making h/t very easy on street.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Yes, I am also practicing turning with double-clutch downshift. But my double-clutch downshifts are usually done such that the speed does not drop (b/c I like to match the rpm as close as possible), even though the engine braking at lower gears should drag the car down some. So I still feel the need to touch the brake. Maybe I can try to mix brakes and d-c downshifts together (call it poor man's heel-toe).

That's pretty much what it amounts to on the track, and your right foot ends up doing a little tap-dance back and forth between the brake and accelerator pedals. There's about a whole second in between it all where the car is just coasting . . . that's irrelevant on the street.


Norm

 

[jasonstang]

Yes, I am also practicing turning with double-clutch downshift. But my double-clutch downshifts are usually done such that the speed does not drop (b/c I like to match the rpm as close as possible), even though the engine braking at lower gears should drag the car down some. So I still feel the need to touch the brake. Maybe I can try to mix brakes and d-c downshifts together (call it poor man's heel-toe).

With the pedal set-up on mustang, I can see this is more for the track than street. With my old car, the brake and gas pedals are at the same distance from the driver and the brake also has some free-play on top, all making h/t very easy on street.

Heel and toe really is not necessary on the street.

 

[Horse]

That's pretty much what it amounts to on the track, and your right foot ends up doing a little tap-dance back and forth between the brake and accelerator pedals.

Good to know, thanks

There's about a whole second in between it all where the car is just coasting . . . that's irrelevant on the street.


Norm

Sorry, I did not quite get this ...

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