2017 Ford Mustang will outperform Chevy Camaro in every way

[15wile]

It's worth noting that the SS also starts at a much higher price. Although, I'm confused as to why there isn't a good 4-door RWD car in Ford's lineup.

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[Shakooza]

I've seen to many 5.0's pull away on a SS........:ford:

I wouldnt doubt it...I dont think that takes away anything from a 4k pound excellent handling Sedan that is running 12s. The guys that are running a livernois tune and cam are serious business. Those guys are running around 500hp with about 3k or so invested...If ya gotta have a family grocery getter its pretty close to tops of the heap right now...

If you are a car guy I dont know how anyone can deny this is bad a**...

[ame]



Im still holding my breath for a angry Ford Fusion....

 

[Trackaholic]

I could be wrong, but I believe they've never actually stated trim level such as 1SS to 1SS. They simply say model to model or v6 to v6 and v8 to v8.

Fair point. I don't actually know either. Maybe there is some wiggle room there.

If that's how they avoid actually hitting the 3450 weight for the V6, then I'll consider it business as usual.

If they do somehow pull off 3450, that will be damn impressive. I guess the EB mustang isn't too far off that either though. Isn't it something like 3550?

-T

 

[Hack]

If you are a car guy I dont know how anyone can deny this is bad a**...

Yeah I agree it sounds good. I had a 302 with a big cam that had a similar sound. Fun to sit at idle and listen to it.

 

[thePill]

I would like some structure data on the 6th Gen like the Fusion had. What was carryover/shared and what was all new. It's 30% shared, 2/3rds is still a considerable amount.

I am under the impression that any weight savings or downsizing done was based on the CTS. Shortening is easier than lengthening IMO.

I'm also under the impression that the Camaro didn't actual get a wider platform vs. the CTS. It extended the suspension links in the rear. It may have gotten wider in the front due to the MacP system.

 

[madweazl]

The LS series of engines are fantastic. While I enjoyed my '12 and so far the '15, the '06 GTO stands as my most favorite car to drive. It had all kinds of small issues but damn it was fun. I'll end up with another one of these days I'm sure.

 

[thePill]

The LS series of engines are fantastic. While I enjoyed my '12 and so far the '15, the '06 GTO stands as my most favorite car to drive. It had all kinds of small issues but damn it was fun. I'll end up with another one of these days I'm sure.

They were, for the end of the age of OHV, they were probably the best.

Essentially, the LS series brought up a really good question. The turning point came around the time they were trying to fit DI in an LS2. I think it worked, that's all I can say...

The issue was, the intake pushrod guide protruded through the intake port on the LS2. It left room for DI though... However, the pushrod guide was redesign in the LS3, which is the major difference from LS2 to LS3 heads. The pushrod guide was moved 0.25 of an inch further into the head casting.

This increased airflow a great deal and is mostly responsible for the power bump from LS2 to 3. However, this design created major issues with DI paths. In fact, DI was probably impossible on the LS3...

Thus the $820 million dollar, raise cam'd LT1 was born. All pushrods been elevated from the intake paths and DI has been added.

The question the LS series raised was many actually.

How do we fit DI?

How do we increase power to remain competitive with DOHC's?

How do we match the fuel economy of a DOHC?

The alleged answer was the LT1.

 

[Mr Monte]

They (LS) were, for the end of the age of OHV, they were probably the best.

Essentially, the LS series brought up a really good question....

How do we match the fuel economy of a DOHC?

The alleged answer was the LT1.

My wife & I switch rides often between our daily drivers being our LS3 powered 2014 SS Sedan & our 2013 Mustang GT so we get to enjoy the different power curves & drivability of each. For me the fuel economy between the 2 is very close for the way I drive which includes a daily stretch to redline & a few triple digit peaks/tank but I'm very fuel efficient at cruising speeds with minimal brake usage.

The new LT1 got off to a bad start & I'm not convinced all those early engine failures were due to bad oil filters. The power curve of the LT1 is impressive but designed for more street than track. I've had some track time in a C7 Corvette (on replacement engine) and it was a blast to drive.

I so want to get a new GT350 on a track & feel the fury of the FPC 5.2 which should be a controllable monster on a track.

 

[Black GT]

My wife & I switch rides often between our daily drivers being our LS3 powered 2014 SS Sedan & our 2013 Mustang GT so we get to enjoy the different power curves & drivability of each. For me the fuel economy between the 2 is very close for the way I drive which includes a daily stretch to redline & a few triple digit peaks/tank but I'm very fuel efficient at cruising speeds with minimal brake usage.

The new LT1 got off to a bad start & I'm not convinced all those early engine failures were due to bad oil filters. The power curve of the LT1 is impressive but designed for more street than track. I've had some track time in a C7 Corvette (on replacement engine) and it was a blast to drive.

I so want to get a new GT350 on a track & feel the fury of the FPC 5.2 which should be a controllable monster on a track.

Me too !!!!!!!!!

 

[15wile]

GM wouldn't be around without taxpayer money, so the whole question is academic in my mind. The market ALREADY decided that GM stinks to high heaven. I don't think it's as much an engineering failure as a build quality failure and a bureaucratic failure. And their sense of aesthetics, which I know is much more subjective, still looks ugly as sh*t to me.

GM has some bright spots (usually in trucks and, of course, the 'vette), but it's marred by complete and utter garbage, like pretty much every small GM car between 1973 and 2000, and atrocious dogs like when they put an Iron Duke motor in a Camaro. That motor, in my opinion, ranks as the worst motor of all time.

Reliability has been sketchy since the 80s, and there is a tendency for many of their cars to be horribly over priced. Take the 5th gen Camaro, for instance. In most trim lines it was more expensive than the Mustang, and yet slower (the 11+ Mustang trounced it). Why? Yeah, it sold well enough (thank the Transformers movies for that), but it really could have been a Mustang killer if the quality was there and the price was right. It rarely is with GM, though. And despite having over priced vehicles, they STILL weren't making money?

Ford isn't a saint, either. They've had problems. But the one thing I've always been impressed with when it comes to Ford is that they handle their problems without running to the government, and they genuinely try to account for their shortcomings. For a long time, Ford 4cyl cars were pretty doggy too, but they brought in talent from Europe (and from Mazda) and now Ford's 4cyl offerings are pretty damned solid. They just don't seem as mired in bureaucracy as GM, and are better able to adapt to changing market conditions.

I wouldn't buy a GM car, no matter what the magazines or spec sheets said, until this problem was addressed. I don't care if the Camaro gets a couple tenths on the Mustang. It does me no good if it looks like sh*t and falls apart on me.

 

[Nasty99z28]

Some people are so stupid to think a movie can make a vehicle lead its segment in sales for 5yrs. If it was that simple everyone would be doing it.

 

[Rob WH]

They were, for the end of the age of OHV, they were probably the best.

The end of the age? C'mon... a tad premature, don't you think? 1st off, OHC has been around much longer, seemingly about twice as long. Next, OHV is clearly still in use in many places, being the primary V8 for GM and Dodge/RAM and while I never think about Viper in general, doesn't that have an OHV V10?

I'm with you in that MOST manufacturers have moved away from OHV engine as their primary powerpant and for very good reasons. That said, I don't see GM or "Fiat" getting away from them until they're literally forced and that could be more than 10yrs from now.

The question the LS series raised was many actually.

How do we fit DI?

How do we increase power to remain competitive with DOHC's?

How do we match the fuel economy of a DOHC?

The alleged answer was the LT1.

For now, they're doing fine, with the real caveat(imo) being, the LT series is definitely more expensive and definitely heavier than the LS(2 main bragging points for LS series over the years- not often considered by true GM fans, against the LT). The 5.3L in 1500 pickups, for example, gets slightly better economy than the 5L in F150 and the 6.2L is just a tick lower while making notably more power and torque. Low end torque is an amazing thing.

I'll keep my 5L, but I'd prefer with DI and cylinder deactivation qualities and it, of course, has neither.

The latest 5L basically matches the 5.3L in power, but w/o also having better economy in the lighter pickup, Ford really should consider at least deactivation, realizing that DI isn't only expensive, but that Ford did indeed test it and determined it didn't really gain economy over the current setup(at least that's what they said).

The reason for not going to Mustang in comparison is simply that the pickups are a closer build in terms of engine size and overall dimensions than the various cars and the 6.2L in those cars is notably larger.

What I'm getting at is, OHV engines are a good thing in many cases and do have their obvious advantages over even DOHC's, although not so many that the DOHC's advantages are wiped out, by any means. I bought a 5L for a reason, but could've gotten a RAM or GM just as easily.

 

[Rob WH]

GM wouldn't be around without taxpayer money, so the whole question is academic in my mind. The market ALREADY decided that GM stinks to high heaven.

I can't agree... GM is still in the top 3 automakers(sales) in the whole world. That's not indicative of the market thinking it's not a good product. Personally, I think Ford makes a better product across the board and honestly, I think most manufacturers have their bright spots, but GM has been turning around their quality issues in my opinion.

Some people are so stupid to think a movie can make a vehicle lead its segment in sales for 5yrs. If it was that simple everyone would be doing it.

If everyone did it... it would never work. :lol:

 

[15wile]

Some people are so stupid to think a movie can make a vehicle lead its segment in sales for 5yrs. If it was that simple everyone would be doing it.

Some people are so stupid to think that movies don't make a sizable sales impact. The plebs will buy anything if they see it on TV.

 

[15wile]

I can't agree... GM is still in the top 3 automakers(sales) in the whole world. That's not indicative of the market thinking it's not a good product. Personally, I think Ford makes a better product across the board and honestly, I think most manufacturers have their bright spots, but GM has been turning around their quality issues in my opinion.

We'll see about their quality issues. The recent problems with the 'vette don't seem promising, though. And GM has claimed to have put the lid on this problem many times before.

In any case, you can make a lot of products, but if you aren't making money you are still a market failure. Again, GM would not EXIST right now (or if it did, it would be in radically reduced form) if the government hadn't stepped in to rescue it. It doesn't exactly instill confidence in the product.

Don't misunderstand, though. Ford isn't perfect. In fact, I think one of Ford's biggest problems is branding. Toyota successfully made Lexus a thing. Lincoln is kind of... meh. The Germans still have a presence Ford has never had. Ford has always managed to be "pretty good" but seems to have trouble crossing into the top tier market. The Ford GT is proof that they COULD do it. Even our Mustangs are proof that Ford is getting better in this regard.

But they aren't there yet.

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