If we pretend the Mustang is a 911? (Just humor me)

[xXANCHORMONXx]

I like my Mustang as a daily and vacay car because of the comfort and trunk. I modified it to hold up on track and it is fun to drive with just a touch of "white knuckle".

I think a Miata or P9xx would be easy to drive fast. Which is why I am confused when some guys claim that those cars would make me a better driver.

I think it’s easier to understand when you drive both cars at the limit.

Having a massive weight difference, and a car is designed from the factory to live on the track allows you to focus more on your lines, speed etc.

Both of my 6G mustangs were and handful at the limit, which isn’t bad and I learned a lot.

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[Anyone3505]

Horsepower alone is not a defining metric. All of the other details that make a Porsche so fast and predictable, are what make it so expensive, and what enable it to be so fast on a track. Chassis, suspension, transmission (especially the PDK) brakes, and so on.

On the street, the Porsche's are just much nicer cars. Better build quality, better materials, much nicer interiors.

This. The build quality of any Porsche, even a Macan, is WILDLY incredibly massively higher than the best vehicle Ford or Lincoln has EVER produced. This is where the Germans, in general, far surpass almost all other automakers. American performance vehicles have always been fast at a relatively cheap price. That cheap price isn't wizardry- it comes with a cost- super cheap paint, heavy chassis, plastic trim tabs that break or deform the first time it's removed, plastic oil pans, etc.

A Porsche will be at least as fast in almost every metric, have MUCH better quality/quantity paint, probably weigh less, you can typically remove trim pieces dozens of times without breaking them, etc. THAT is where most of the higher cost comes from.

The reason i didn't PPF my GT is because the paint was already horrible brand new and it just isn't worth it. If i have the car long enough I'd rather just repaint the whole thing because it'll be better quality than factory. And realize that the GT350 and GT500 and to much extent the GTD are the same build quality and common shared parts as the $28k Ecoboost base model. The American way is to take a cheaply-built vehicle and add features and performance. The Porsche way is to make a well-built vehicle and charge for features that are standard in other brands.

Yes we're way off topic at this point.

 

[Strokerswild]

This. The build quality of any Porsche, even a Macan, is WILDLY incredibly massively higher than the best vehicle Ford or Lincoln has EVER produced. This is where the Germans, in general, far surpass almost all other automakers. American performance vehicles have always been fast at a relatively cheap price. That cheap price isn't wizardry- it comes with a cost- super cheap paint, heavy chassis, plastic trim tabs that break or deform the first time it's removed, plastic oil pans, etc.

A Porsche will be at least as fast in almost every metric, have MUCH better quality/quantity paint, probably weigh less, you can typically remove trim pieces dozens of times without breaking them, etc. THAT is where most of the higher cost comes from.

The reason i didn't PPF my GT is because the paint was already horrible brand new and it just isn't worth it. If i have the car long enough I'd rather just repaint the whole thing because it'll be better quality than factory. And realize that the GT350 and GT500 and to much extent the GTD are the same build quality and common shared parts as the $28k Ecoboost base model. The American way is to take a cheaply-built vehicle and add features and performance. The Porsche way is to make a well-built vehicle and charge for features that are standard in other brands.

Yes we're way off topic at this point.

Well put.

Ford seems to have this delusion that they are a premium auto manufacturer, but reality says otherwise. The three late model Fords that I currently own are proof, none are as good in terms of overall quality as the pair of 1st-gen VW Tiguans (German built) that were in the fleet over time.

 

[9secondko]

It isnt the frog looking one that likes to wheel hop though lol!

Like many here I do appreciate both.

LOL. Don’t we lo know this on a personal level.

But spending a little bit to stop the hop sure beats spending a couple extra hundred thousand for a frog that never hopped to begin with.

I like both too. Just couldn’t get into the frog look on the Porsche. But I can see where some do.

I just feel the Mustang has always looked far better with a few exceptions.

 

[Lorne34]

Absolutely, over the years I’ve read reviews that they would describe the driving characteristics on track for a Mustang as a sledgehammer and a Porsche as a scalpel. That’s probably the best way I could say it as well.

I also previously owned a Cayman GTS with the 4 L flat six and that was also a monster at the track.

After bringing my Shelby back to “stockish” it’s very evident that the GT 350 out of the box is much closer to a street car than a race car. It is by far more comfortable than both Porsche’s on the street and is honestly more enjoyable to drive over rough roads, even though there is some tram lining that’s inherent.

I agree with this assessment. It's one of the things I love about my GT350. A great street and road trip car, but when I want to take it to the track I can leave it stock and not worry about brakes, suspension, cooling, etc. I'm not concerned about lap times and comparing myself with the porsche models which I see often at track days.
I am not sure how to categorize the mustang lineup vs the Porsche,.
but for my GT350 this article gives a pretty good comparison vs similar vehicles:
https://www.caranddriver.com/review...d-mustang-shelby-gt350-vs-porsche-718-cayman/

 

[xXANCHORMONXx]

I agree with this assessment. It's one of the things I love about my GT350. A great street and road trip car, but when I want to take it to the track I can leave it stock and not worry about brakes, suspension, cooling, etc. I'm not concerned about lap times and comparing myself with the porsche models which I see often at track days.
I am not sure how to categorize the mustang lineup vs the Porsche,.
but for my GT350 this article gives a pretty good comparison vs similar vehicles:
https://www.caranddriver.com/review...d-mustang-shelby-gt350-vs-porsche-718-cayman/

I remember reading that article years ago.

They have some big headlines in there about handling, I do think it’s funny oh well they claim the GT 350 to handle in that article. It definitely should with the tires and has compared to the rest. Lol

After almost a decade of track, only use with my Shelby has been really awesome taking it out on the street. From a value proposition the GT 350 is a great deal and does most things pretty well.

 

[Lorne34]

I remember reading that article years ago.

They have some big headlines in there about handling, I do think it’s funny oh well they claim the GT 350 to handle in that article. It definitely should with the tires and has compared to the rest. Lol

After almost a decade of track, only use with my Shelby has been really awesome taking it out on the street. From a value proposition the GT 350 is a great deal and does most things pretty well.

Agreed, I do long this article and have a copy in my GT350 binder..
They do state in the article that the 911 might have been a better comp car for porsche in this test.
I also love the quote about law enforcement.. I think edmunds did a long term road test of a 350 and said something similar... confusing for law enforcement, sounds like its going 100mph trudging around the streets....

 

[IPOGT]

TBH, it doesn’t take a 911 to win it. The 718 S destroys the Mach 1 or the GT350 on track with or without the bigger wheels and tires. Problem is, it’s a little tight inside and not as much fun to drive commute like but inside, it wraps you. It’s a weird feeling like you’re more integral to the car. The Mach 1 is more fun around town. The last car I ever owned close to that feeling of connection was a 1983 Mazda RX-7 GSL I owned. An experience I highly recommend if given the chance.

 

[Nickel]

This. The build quality of any Porsche, even a Macan, is WILDLY incredibly massively higher than the best vehicle Ford or Lincoln has EVER produced. This is where the Germans, in general, far surpass almost all other automakers. American performance vehicles have always been fast at a relatively cheap price. That cheap price isn't wizardry- it comes with a cost- super cheap paint, heavy chassis, plastic trim tabs that break or deform the first time it's removed, plastic oil pans, etc.

A Porsche will be at least as fast in almost every metric, have MUCH better quality/quantity paint, probably weigh less, you can typically remove trim pieces dozens of times without breaking them, etc. THAT is where most of the higher cost comes from.

The reason i didn't PPF my GT is because the paint was already horrible brand new and it just isn't worth it. If i have the car long enough I'd rather just repaint the whole thing because it'll be better quality than factory. And realize that the GT350 and GT500 and to much extent the GTD are the same build quality and common shared parts as the $28k Ecoboost base model. The American way is to take a cheaply-built vehicle and add features and performance. The Porsche way is to make a well-built vehicle and charge for features that are standard in other brands.

Yes we're way off topic at this point.

Dude, this is a wild point actually. So I have an 07 BMW Z4 Coupe 3.0si with the N52 I6. They're about 260hp. That thing is so much faster to me than it should be in a straight line. I get that it's about 3k lbs opposed to some other heavier V6's, but it pulls on cars I don't expect it to pull on. And it's been stupid reliable. It just feels like way more than 260hp.

Edit: It was also the most rigid chassis at 33,000NM/Deg in the world for a long time and still surpasses a lot of new cars. I always thought that was cool.

 

[kwpony]

What's that joke about Porsche drivers compared to porcupines ?

 

[sk47]

Dude, this is a wild point actually. So I have an 07 BMW Z4 Coupe 3.0si with the N52 I6. They're about 260hp. That thing is so much faster to me than it should be in a straight line. I get that it's about 3k lbs opposed to some other heavier V6's, but it pulls on cars I don't expect it to pull on. And it's been stupid reliable. It just feels like way more than 260hp.

Edit: It was also the most rigid chassis at 33,000NM/Deg in the world for a long time and still surpasses a lot of new cars. I always thought that was cool.

Hello; I have some experience with BMW & Porsche. Word got around a few decades ago I could work on them in an area far from a dealership. At the time a Ford, Chevy or Dodge was not the road car of either. Hard to compare cost to operate. The Detroit three may have had different sorts of mechanical woes but the BMW's & Porsches wound up being costlier to keep on the road. Parts were so much more costly.
Of course, a 1974 jaguar XJ sedan was the big shocker as far as parts cost went. Also, much harder to work on.

But yes the BMW will feel better on the road. Same for a 2001 VW Jetta over my Nissan Sentra.

Good for you to have a reliable BMW. I found a number of BMW owners wanted to maintain them same as a cheaper Ford or Chevy. Those who stayed ahead on the preferred (well my preferred routine) also tended to have good luck. Thos I could not talk into a brake fluid flush every two years or a minimum of an oil change per year or letting the solid lifter adjustment go not so much.

But ever notice how many Porsche & BMW's show up for sale at around four years old or 50,000 miles. My take this is when the factory warranty expires and repair costs fall on the owner.

 

[sk47]

What's that joke about Porsche drivers compared to porcupines ?

Hello; I do not know that one. I know the one which goes - if you are a lover buy an Italian car, if you are a perfectionist buy a German car. If you like punishment buy a British car. ( I do not know how to spell machoisticst)

 

[Anyone3505]

Dude, this is a wild point actually. So I have an 07 BMW Z4 Coupe 3.0si with the N52 I6. They're about 260hp. That thing is so much faster to me than it should be in a straight line. I get that it's about 3k lbs opposed to some other heavier V6's, but it pulls on cars I don't expect it to pull on. And it's been stupid reliable. It just feels like way more than 260hp.

Edit: It was also the most rigid chassis at 33,000NM/Deg in the world for a long time and still surpasses a lot of new cars. I always thought that was cool.

German automakers were known to under-rate their engine output for a long time, often by 10-15%.

Brand new, stock GTIs commonly dynoed with more HP than advertised (so add FWD drivetrain loss on top of it). Even trying to account and normalize for different dynos/conditions, the 200hp official rating was estimated to be 220-230 in reality. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the Z4 and N52 were more powerful than let on. I'm a big fan of the Z4.

 

[Nickel]

Hello; I have some experience with BMW & Porsche. Word got around a few decades ago I could work on them in an area far from a dealership. At the time a Ford, Chevy or Dodge was not the road car of either. Hard to compare cost to operate. The Detroit three may have had different sorts of mechanical woes but the BMW's & Porsches wound up being costlier to keep on the road. Parts were so much more costly.
Of course, a 1974 jaguar XJ sedan was the big shocker as far as parts cost went. Also, much harder to work on.

But yes the BMW will feel better on the road. Same for a 2001 VW Jetta over my Nissan Sentra.

Good for you to have a reliable BMW. I found a number of BMW owners wanted to maintain them same as a cheaper Ford or Chevy. Those who stayed ahead on the preferred (well my preferred routine) also tended to have good luck. Thos I could not talk into a brake fluid flush every two years or a minimum of an oil change per year or letting the solid lifter adjustment go not so much.

But ever notice how many Porsche & BMW's show up for sale at around four years old or 50,000 miles. My take this is when the factory warranty expires and repair costs fall on the owner.

I got this one at 99K miles. It's the 6 speed auto because I got it to be a daily in heavy traffic. I had the trans serviced where they replace the pan with integrated filter and fluid, and diff fluid for like $800 which is a 100k mile service so good for another 100k! Did spark plugs, air filters and just change oil now. I also put some new Apex EC7's on it as well. Ive put 7k miles on it in about a year and a half of ownership and it's been fantastic.

 

[kwpony]

Hello; I do not know that one. I know the one which goes - if you are a lover buy an Italian car, if you are a perfectionist buy a German car. If you like punishment buy a British car. ( I do not know how to spell machoisticst)

It goes something like. Question : What's the difference between a porcupine and a Porsche ?
Answer: the porcupine has it's pricks on the outside and all Porsches have their pricks on the inside.
Hopefully nobody gets offended. I live in Germany and I love Porsches.

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