Question for guys who actually have the the Roush Kit

[JIMJH154]

thanks

 

[CarDad29]

Seems like the best spot for it...
For those who don't have an IC Chiller or similar setup; what's your "normal" IAT2 readings?

Past summer my car was approaching 180s°F when in school pick-up lines etc, and in the fall I realized there was very little movement of the water in the chargers reservoir. Even at sub 60°F ambient temps, it was holding 120-130s°F IAT2 and would hit 160 by top of 3rd or middle of 4th gear pulls.

I had a VMP triple pass heat exchanger installed along with a GT500 pump. Cruising temps seemed to stay around 110-120s IAT2 through winter, but as we're hitting mid 70s and low 80s °F ambient, it's back to 120-130 while cruising, sitting in traffic getting into the 150s. 15 minutes into a drive to work and temps will be around 120s IAT2 ~60°F ambient, and hitting 145°F IAT2 lower part of 4th gear doing a 2-3-4 pull.

Not exactly a crazy stir, but you can see movement of the coolant in the reservoir so I don't believe the pump is failed, but the coolant temp in there "feels" colder than my finger (I've gotten pretty good at guessing 120-130 range by touch from running in equipment bearings, this is much cooler than that).

Is what I'm experiencing just "normal" for this crappy design? Has whomever signed off on the small brick been kicked in the nuts yet? Anybody near DFW running an IC chiller mind sharing if they noticed significant loss of cooling for the cabin in the peak heats (humid 100°F+ days)?

 

[acemastr]

Seems like the best spot for it...
For those who don't have an IC Chiller or similar setup; what's your "normal" IAT2 readings?

Past summer my car was approaching 180s°F when in school pick-up lines etc, and in the fall I realized there was very little movement of the water in the chargers reservoir. Even at sub 60°F ambient temps, it was holding 120-130s°F IAT2 and would hit 160 by top of 3rd or middle of 4th gear pulls.

I had a VMP triple pass heat exchanger installed along with a GT500 pump. Cruising temps seemed to stay around 110-120s IAT2 through winter, but as we're hitting mid 70s and low 80s °F ambient, it's back to 120-130 while cruising, sitting in traffic getting into the 150s. 15 minutes into a drive to work and temps will be around 120s IAT2 ~60°F ambient, and hitting 145°F IAT2 lower part of 4th gear doing a 2-3-4 pull.

Not exactly a crazy stir, but you can see movement of the coolant in the reservoir so I don't believe the pump is failed, but the coolant temp in there "feels" colder than my finger (I've gotten pretty good at guessing 120-130 range by touch from running in equipment bearings, this is much cooler than that).

Is what I'm experiencing just "normal" for this crappy design? Has whomever signed off on the small brick been kicked in the nuts yet? Anybody near DFW running an IC chiller mind sharing if they noticed significant loss of cooling for the cabin in the peak heats (humid 100°F+ days)?

Can't speak for dfw but I'm Florida and it hasn't affected my cabin at all. With it cooling both chiller and cabin my iats are below ambient cruising, 5-10f below. With it on the chiller only I see 30f below ambient.

I've been running my ac on auto too which isn't optimal for the chiller because it turns the condensor on and off.

Get the chiller, you'll never worry about iats again.

 

[CarDad29]

Thanks for the quick feedback! I used to live in WPB area of Florida. Summer time here is like that half hour after the 1PM shower when the sun comes out, but 20-30 degrees hotter, and all damn day. Moved to DFW in April and as summer hit, I was so pissed seeing the night-time lows in the 90s lol. Our cars are twins (if you're also 6spd), the dark color doesn't help. The cooled seats don't really start working until the cabin is fairly cool and that already takes a while here; 15-20 minutes and by that time I'm still sweaty when I get home. I'm regretting going this heat exchanger/pump route because that was only a few bills shy of doing the IC Chiller.

 

[engineermike]

Those temps are pretty typical. The best solution is e85 if you have access to it.

 

[acemastr]

Thanks for the quick feedback! I used to live in WPB area of Florida. Summer time here is like that half hour after the 1PM shower when the sun comes out, but 20-30 degrees hotter, and all damn day. Moved to DFW in April and as summer hit, I was so pissed seeing the night-time lows in the 90s lol. Our cars are twins (if you're also 6spd), the dark color doesn't help. The cooled seats don't really start working until the cabin is fairly cool and that already takes a while here; 15-20 minutes and by that time I'm still sweaty when I get home. I'm regretting going this heat exchanger/pump route because that was only a few bills shy of doing the IC Chiller.

I'm currently sitting in traffic, 75f air temp, 63f intake temp.

It's glorious

 

[CarDad29]

Those temps are pretty typical. The best solution is e85 if you have access to it.

That's what I was looking for. Thanks Mike. Knowing I don't have a problem besides the wrong kit is some peace of mind. Regarding E85, I've got a lower compression (aluminator) block and average about 14MPG on 93. I can get E85 around me pretty easily, but I wouldn't be able to get out of town unless I had a flex tune, and I'm not sure I'd enjoy a significantly further reduction in range. I get to refuel every 150 miles as is. Lastly, my tuner won't look at E85 without doing a fuel system, which would end up beyond costs of the IC Chiller anyway. If you had a shop here I'd pulley up a little and have you tune it for flex ha ha. I'm not really after more power as I can't really stand on it below ~80MPH now anyway, and it's just a street car.
(All that said, I looked into installing that SmoothBoost controller and found another one of your posts.... I really wish you'd make a business off your tuning hobby ha ha ha)

 

[The Watchman]

That's what I was looking for. Thanks Mike. Knowing I don't have a problem besides the wrong kit is some peace of mind. Regarding E85, I've got a lower compression (aluminator) block and average about 14MPG on 93. I can get E85 around me pretty easily, but I wouldn't be able to get out of town unless I had a flex tune, and I'm not sure I'd enjoy a significantly further reduction in range. I get to refuel every 150 miles as is. Lastly, my tuner won't look at E85 without doing a fuel system, which would end up beyond costs of the IC Chiller anyway. If you had a shop here I'd pulley up a little and have you tune it for flex ha ha. I'm not really after more power as I can't really stand on it below ~80MPH now anyway, and it's just a street car.
(All that said, I looked into installing that SmoothBoost controller and found another one of your posts.... I really wish you'd make a business off your tuning hobby ha ha ha)

I just wanted to encourage that the phrase "the wrong kit" is purely subjective. The Roush 2650 for 3rd Gen Coyote is certainly the underdog and the kit everyone seems to enjoy bashing.

However, as this thread has demonstrated time and again, this kit performs very well with just a few upgrades and mods.

Please note the Roush 2650 for 3rd Gen Coyote is the cheapest PD kit available. If you add a FI Interchiller or another variant, this kit can stand back to back pulls in high humidity and hot weather, maybe even better than say Whipple with no chiller.

If you find a Roush Kit on sale for say $8k even, which is easy to do, then add a stage 2 FI Interchiller kit, you are looking at slightly more money than a Whipple stage 2.

If you could get the Roush P2 kit plus the FI Interchiller Stage 2 kit purchased and installed for $12.5k out the door, the kit would perform similarly to Whipple. The caveat being your Roush P2 now has an interchiller and can actually stay cooler than a Whipple kit without an interchiller.

Yes, Whipple can make more HP up top and has greater room for expansion in terms of power.

Nevertheless, the Roush P2 makes significantly better torque numbers...you are then faced with the question of exactly how much power do I wanna make on a stock motor?

Because the safest ceiling for 3rd Gen Coyote is around 800-850 rwhp. The Roush P2 kit, with LTH, E85 and Interchiller can easily do that...

My car dyno was 803 rwhp and 760 wheel torque. My car is a blast to drive on the street and is very reliable at those numbers.

Hope this helps and cheers!

 

[engineermike]

That's what I was looking for. Thanks Mike. Knowing I don't have a problem besides the wrong kit is some peace of mind. Regarding E85, I've got a lower compression (aluminator) block and average about 14MPG on 93. I can get E85 around me pretty easily, but I wouldn't be able to get out of town unless I had a flex tune, and I'm not sure I'd enjoy a significantly further reduction in range. I get to refuel every 150 miles as is. Lastly, my tuner won't look at E85 without doing a fuel system, which would end up beyond costs of the IC Chiller anyway. If you had a shop here I'd pulley up a little and have you tune it for flex ha ha. I'm not really after more power as I can't really stand on it below ~80MPH now anyway, and it's just a street car.
(All that said, I looked into installing that SmoothBoost controller and found another one of your posts.... I really wish you'd make a business off your tuning hobby ha ha ha)

This raises so many questions....

Why did you swap out the short block? And what are you doing for tuning? What fuel system mods do you have so far, like pump or injectors?

I've been itching to tune a 9.5/1 aluminator gen3 on pump gas and I'd love to spend about 6 months on it. A 2.8" pulley and flex tuning using a mild injector upgrade (55's or 75's max) and DW400 at 22 volts, it would make a lot of power and be very versatile. A ported blower, 103 mm TB, and chiller and I bet it could perform extremely well on pump gas.

Really, though, if you were to run E85 there's not much reason left to get the chiller. But if you had the chiller, there would be an advantage to running E85 but not as much as if it were 12/1 still.

 

[CarDad29]

Watchman, you took some time in your response so I'd like to return the diligent courtesy and address your points one by one inside the quote below:

I just wanted to encourage that the phrase "the wrong kit" is purely subjective. The Roush 2650 for 3rd Gen Coyote is certainly the underdog and the kit everyone seems to enjoy bashing.
I won't argue that besides everyone liking to bash it. I don't think many want to bash kits, but this one has "earned" it. To me, this is the absolute worst kit on the market for this engine, there isn't a single aspect of it that every other kit doesn't do "better" besides the CARB certs and FOMOCO approved tuning.

However, as this thread has demonstrated time and again, this kit performs very well with just a few upgrades and mods.
This thread demonstrates that there is a NEED for upgrades and mods to this kit to make it compete with the rest.

Please note the Roush 2650 for 3rd Gen Coyote is the cheapest PD kit available. If you add a FI Interchiller or another variant, this kit can stand back to back pulls in high humidity and hot weather, maybe even better than say Whipple with no chiller.
This seems similar to "stock car" vs "built car" race result arguments. The other guys don't NEED that "IF you add.." upgrades etc. I'm not trying to make this car show strong numbers all day every day on a dyno, and the Whipple guys without a chiller can make another pass while a Roush car without a chiller won't be.

If you find a Roush Kit on sale for say $8k even, which is easy to do, then add a stage 2 FI Interchiller kit, you are looking at slightly more money than a Whipple stage 2.
Again, the Roush one has to be modified/upgraded to solve a problem the other one doesn't have. "IF..."

If you could get the Roush P2 kit plus the FI Interchiller Stage 2 kit purchased and installed for $12.5k out the door, the kit would perform similarly to Whipple. The caveat being your Roush P2 now has an interchiller and can actually stay cooler than a Whipple kit without an interchiller.
It's also heavier and more complicated now...

Yes, Whipple can make more HP up top and has greater room for expansion in terms of power.
I'm content with the power the Roush kit makes when it's not pulling timing due to heat caused by a very dumb/greedy decision.

Nevertheless, the Roush P2 makes significantly better torque numbers...you are then faced with the question of exactly how much power do I wanna make on a stock motor?
Whipple charts typically show a bit more torque than Roush across the entire RPM range, I'm not sure where you're seeing significantly more torque from a Roush car, unless you're comparing the "stock" Whipple kit to a significantly modified Roush kit. My stock engine cracked cylinder 5 with the Roush kit on it.

Because the safest ceiling for 3rd Gen Coyote is around 800-850 rwhp. The Roush P2 kit, with LTH, E85 and Interchiller can easily do that...
I'm not looking for that much power anyway, I just want to make my ~650whp for more than one pull, at which point it NEEDS the interchiller.

My car dyno was 803 rwhp and 760 wheel torque. My car is a blast to drive on the street and is very reliable at those numbers.
Those are very impressive figures. Personally, I'd dial back from that for sake of longevity and not really ever having the space to use all that on the street.

Hope this helps and cheers!
You a foreigner? Not many "locals" use "cheers" here, ha ha.

This raises so many questions....

Why did you swap out the short block? And what are you doing for tuning? What fuel system mods do you have so far, like pump or injectors?

I've been itching to tune a 9.5/1 aluminator gen3 on pump gas and I'd love to spend about 6 months on it. A 2.8" pulley and flex tuning using a mild injector upgrade (55's or 75's max) and DW400 at 22 volts, it would make a lot of power and be very versatile. A ported blower, 103 mm TB, and chiller and I bet it could perform extremely well on pump gas.

Really, though, if you were to run E85 there's not much reason left to get the chiller. But if you had the chiller, there would be an advantage to running E85 but not as much as if it were 12/1 still.

Mike, after spending a bunch of money to make sure the car didn't blow up (OPGs, CS, tensioners, chains etc) while getting a new clutch installed, cylinder 5 cracked the first time I tried opening up after the clutch break in. Mechanic noted that the harness for the DI on #5 had been tampered with and taped up, so suspecting it went lean and popped. Decided on doing a short block replacement, and local Summit location had the SC block in stock. I also viewed it as further bullet-proofing.
Current fueling is just what the Roush phase 2 kit came with (no BAP). Stock Phase 2 pulley.
Since blowing it up I had the charger cleaned out same time, seeing what was in there opted for PCV delete, and being lower compression the Roush calibration doesn't like that, mechanic had the car tuned by Majed Tuning and I have an SCT4 device. My original intent was for this to be a "daily" and I wouldn't have any devices or gauges etc. Now I'm back to where I was with my old car mounting gauges to keep an eye on things..
I mentioned earlier I'd entertain going up a size in pulley if I went E85, less heat and even more timing being possible, but with the low CR impacting mileage already, I can't stomach having to refuel every ~90 miles lol. It's already pretty ridiculous filling it up weekly considering I drive it to work twice a week and once a while on weekends.. and it was intended to be my daily.
I'm pretty content with the power it makes when it's not running hot, but I wish it could be smoother. I'm sure it can be, it's a bit smoother than the Roush calibration was, but still a pain in the ass on rough roads at slow speed (going over bumps/dips from a light, railroad tracks etc, and it starts "surging" like the bypass is clapping..
Sounds like if I do the IC chiller the car will be able to do what I wanted out of it power wise, and then at some point find somebody that can implement speed/gear dependent torque limiting. I like the idea of the smoothboost to effectively have a boost controller to "play" with.
I likely won't go through the efforts (and funds) of "maximizing" the blower or the setup, but if you've got ideas or things you want to check/test on this lower compression, maybe we can work something out.. shoot I've got a 95 Ranger I can kick around in for a few months, can't promise 6 months lol. When are you relocating to TX? Ha ha ha.

 

[acemastr]

Watchman, you took some time in your response so I'd like to return the diligent courtesy and address your points one by one inside the quote below:






Mike, after spending a bunch of money to make sure the car didn't blow up (OPGs, CS, tensioners, chains etc) while getting a new clutch installed, cylinder 5 cracked the first time I tried opening up after the clutch break in. Mechanic noted that the harness for the DI on #5 had been tampered with and taped up, so suspecting it went lean and popped. Decided on doing a short block replacement, and local Summit location had the SC block in stock. I also viewed it as further bullet-proofing.
Current fueling is just what the Roush phase 2 kit came with (no BAP). Stock Phase 2 pulley.
Since blowing it up I had the charger cleaned out same time, seeing what was in there opted for PCV delete, and being lower compression the Roush calibration doesn't like that, mechanic had the car tuned by Majed Tuning and I have an SCT4 device. My original intent was for this to be a "daily" and I wouldn't have any devices or gauges etc. Now I'm back to where I was with my old car mounting gauges to keep an eye on things..
I mentioned earlier I'd entertain going up a size in pulley if I went E85, less heat and even more timing being possible, but with the low CR impacting mileage already, I can't stomach having to refuel every ~90 miles lol. It's already pretty ridiculous filling it up weekly considering I drive it to work twice a week and once a while on weekends.. and it was intended to be my daily.
I'm pretty content with the power it makes when it's not running hot, but I wish it could be smoother. I'm sure it can be, it's a bit smoother than the Roush calibration was, but still a pain in the ass on rough roads at slow speed (going over bumps/dips from a light, railroad tracks etc, and it starts "surging" like the bypass is clapping..
Sounds like if I do the IC chiller the car will be able to do what I wanted out of it power wise, and then at some point find somebody that can implement speed/gear dependent torque limiting. I like the idea of the smoothboost to effectively have a boost controller to "play" with.
I likely won't go through the efforts (and funds) of "maximizing" the blower or the setup, but if you've got ideas or things you want to check/test on this lower compression, maybe we can work something out.. shoot I've got a 95 Ranger I can kick around in for a few months, can't promise 6 months lol. When are you relocating to TX? Ha ha ha.

I got lucky and found my phase 2 kit for $3500, plus some bits I needed brought it right up to $6k all in including tuning by wengerd. $2k all in for the chiller and it's great now. I can't compare it to a whipple but I still expect heatsoak is an issue.

I'm running a bap (wengerd recommended) for 93, he says it'll need a full return system to run e85 which is $2-3k by itself.

 

[CarDad29]

I got lucky and found my phase 2 kit for $3500, plus some bits I needed brought it right up to $6k all in including tuning by wengerd. $2k all in for the chiller and it's great now. I can't compare it to a whipple but I still expect heatsoak is an issue.

I'm running a bap (wengerd recommended) for 93, he says it'll need a full return system to run e85 which is $2-3k by itself.

That's a killer deal! I purchased this car with the kit installed, pretty sure it was traded/sold due to the heat soak issue. I got the car priced not much above local market pricing for NA mustangs with similar mileage and options (premium car). At some point it had other suspension mods and then returned to stock. It's not a Roush built car though.

I'm sure the Whipples will heat soak like pretty much any other PD blower setup, but to not during the first 10 seconds of a pull.

I've heard Wengerd is great, I'm sure it's a great calibration, but I believe Mike has proven a return style system isn't really NEEDED with the stock 2650 on E85. I think he's running a BAP and maybe slightly larger port injectors... been a minute since I read that. Mike also doesn't have to worry about warrantying any oopsies though, ha ha, I can't say I blame the larger tuners for wanting to ensure there's plenty of headroom.

I'm curious though, did Wengerd ask for the BAP right off the bat or did they see a need for it while tuning? Are you on the 80mm pulley?

 

[acemastr]

That's a killer deal! I purchased this car with the kit installed, pretty sure it was traded/sold due to the heat soak issue. I got the car priced not much above local market pricing for NA mustangs with similar mileage and options (premium car). At some point it had other suspension mods and then returned to stock. It's not a Roush built car though.

I'm sure the Whipples will heat soak like pretty much any other PD blower setup, but to not during the first 10 seconds of a pull.

I've heard Wengerd is great, I'm sure it's a great calibration, but I believe Mike has proven a return style system isn't really NEEDED with the stock 2650 on E85. I think he's running a BAP and maybe slightly larger port injectors... been a minute since I read that. Mike also doesn't have to worry about warrantying any oopsies though, ha ha, I can't say I blame the larger tuners for wanting to ensure there's plenty of headroom.

I'm curious though, did Wengerd ask for the BAP right off the bat or did they see a need for it while tuning? Are you on the 80mm pulley?

Right off the bat, mainly for safety, I did tell him I'm pretty cautious. Stock 80mm pulley. Roush used to provide a bap in the kit but I believe they changed the tune to provide more voltage to the fuel pump in the latest revisions of the phase 2, so no need for the bap anymore.

 

[acemastr]

Those temps are pretty typical. The best solution is e85 if you have access to it.

Would the car still see IAT2 (prior to the cylinder) since the E85 isn't cooling anything yet and thus pull timing? Just a random thought in my head.

 

[CarDad29]

Would the car still see IAT2 (prior to the cylinder) since the E85 isn't cooling anything yet and thus pull timing? Just a random thought in my head.

With E85 you can run hotter before worrying about detonation (knock). Won't see much change in the IAT2, EGTs will go down a bit though.