.....

[UPRjoe]

Keep up the good work and sharing with all of us.

Joe

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[Rob WH]

And, yes, at the boost we were running before and temps in the 30's, we found the limits of the fuel system.

Seems to me, the results you got were perhaps not what you initially expected, but something you could work with and that's the reason to use the dyno AND the track.

Do you really think you've already found the limits of the fuel system? If so, do you think a stronger pump will be a fix for now? I'd think the system being maxed as a whole... a bit sad.

I'm also curious, since I've been told that tuning nowadays can literally be cylinder by cylinder, could you have dropped timing on the top end to avoid shutting down boost? That is, change the parameters so boost doesn't shut off unless fp drops below acceptable levels and is otherwise a timing issue. It kinda seems like boost did shut down exactly like that already, but was that planned or a built in fail safe? I haven't heard of this being a problem with the 2L, but for all I know, the power level is far, far off between the two.

 

[Apwrx]

What boost were you at when you found the fuel limit? I really don't think mid 12 power is all the stock fuel system is capable of.I don't think that's what's been stated but i could see some thinking that.Just want clarification

 

[limequat]

What boost were you at when you found the fuel limit? I really don't think mid 12 power is all the stock fuel system is capable of.I don't think that's what's been stated but i could see some thinking that.Just want clarification

Would be interesting to get full-race's take on it, as they've been up to 500 hp.
But, I do believe that mbreinin found the fuel limit already. It's been stated that the reason EBs don't run E85 is because the fuel system can't deal with the 50% more fuel mass that must be delivered.

 

[mbreinin]

I do not to profess to be an expert in tuning these. Torrie asked me to log the current tune, so I went and made a pull. I can read a datalog and it was lean, way too lean for comfort. So, we took some boost out until it met the AFR target, and then tweaked from there. What happened at the track was we exceeded the boost target and it pulled the throttle closed to regain that target. I can tell you that there is more than one way to make power with these cars. Don't assume that because some other tuner made X, or ran Y, that we could not max out the fuel system with one approach. Livernois was running a heavily oxygenated race fuel. To me, that indicates they had aggressive timing, which is another way to make power and will not tax the fuel system as much as cranking the boost. Full Race had an aftermarket turbo on the car, superior intercooling as well. Moving more air, but able to make more power at lower boost levels. Maybe they squeaked by. I was not having this issue until the temps dropped into the 30s and the air got really dense. I am talking SE Louisiana dense....-2000 DA or more.

Mike

 

[Rob WH]

I do not to profess to be an expert in tuning these. Torrie asked me to log the current tune, so I went and made a pull. I can read a datalog and it was lean, way too lean for comfort. So, we took some boost out until it met the AFR target, and then tweaked from there. What happened at the track was we exceeded the boost target and it pulled the throttle closed to regain that target. I can tell you that there is more than one way to make power with these cars. Don't assume that because some other tuner made X, or ran Y, that we could not max out the fuel system with one approach. Livernois was running a heavily oxygenated race fuel. To me, that indicates they had aggressive timing, which is another way to make power and will not tax the fuel system as much as cranking the boost. Full Race had an aftermarket turbo on the car, superior intercooling as well. Moving more air, but able to make more power at lower boost levels. Maybe they squeaked by.

All that makes sense. What was the AFR and what did you want it to be?

Taking from your points above, there are many ways to approach the tune and you've found an end to your 1st approach. For many, that sucks. In reality, I think it's a great thing. For 1 thing, you didn't have to lose an engine to find it. Plus, you know that limit and can now work on other aspects so as far as I'm concerned, you fellas did good! I still wouldn't just think a 12.5 was the right ET, because that's based on several probabilities which obviously didn't take shape that night and the 2.3L is so new, we don't know what it's truly capable of and won't for at least... Idonno... 2 more weeks? :shrug:

Here's to the hope he'll continue to provide the car and you'll continue to find a tune... :cheers:

I was not having this issue until the temps dropped into the 30s and the air got really dense. I am talking SE Louisiana dense....-2000 DA or more.

Mike

There's a silver lining in this. Most of us won't be racing in temps that low, so it won't be a concern most of the time. I'm impressed with the short time based solely on doing it w/ that temp, btw!

 

[mbreinin]

All that makes sense. What was the AFR and what did you want it to be?

Taking from your points above, there are many ways to approach the tune and you've found an end to your 1st approach. For many, that sucks. In reality, I think it's a great thing. For 1 thing, you didn't have to lose an engine to find it. Plus, you know that limit and can now work on other aspects so as far as I'm concerned, you fellas did good! I still wouldn't just think a 12.5 was the right ET, because that's based on several probabilities which obviously didn't take shape that night and the 2.3L is so new, we don't know what it's truly capable of and won't for at least... Idonno... 2 more weeks? :shrug:

Here's to the hope he'll continue to provide the car and you'll continue to find a tune... :cheers:

There's a silver lining in this. Most of us won't be racing in temps that low, so it won't be a concern most of the time. I'm impressed with the short time based solely on doing it w/ that temp, btw!

We have discussed testing the car with the addition of timing. We may play with that some more. I think the throttle closure certainly hurt me a few tenths. It was reduced for roughly 50% of the pull. Next time, that won't be an issue.

The car does dead hook on these 275s. I cut a 1.70, which I was really impressed by. For example, Livernois cut a 1.67 on their 11.8 pass.

I will be back out soon, with a downpipe.

Mike

 

[wireless]

Fantastic results.

 

[Rob WH]

Keep us up to date as you progress. It looks like you'll be getting great results while learning the overall car and that's a good thing.

 

[JJ@WMS]

Your not running out of fuel, your hitting a limiter plain and simple and it usually happens when you try to run over 23psi.

JJ

 

[mbreinin]

Your not running out of fuel, your hitting a limiter plain and simple and it usually happens when you try to run over 23psi.

JJ

I have been running over 23 psi for a while. Are you saying that it pulls fuel out when you run over 23 psi? Please, explain since I made this pass at 25 psi and the AFR was dead on.

Mike

 

[JJ@WMS]

I have been running over 23 psi for a while. Are you saying that it pulls fuel out when you run over 23 psi? Please, explain since I made this pass at 25 psi and the AFR was dead on.

Mike

My 23psi is a general statement. "around 23lbs or more" is where you start to hit the limiter depending on conditions etc...

You can make 25 and everything be perfect and then the next hit you will hit a limiter. We have done it several times with our car and its something everyone is still working on to figure out. Throttle closes, boost is dumped to around 10 and airfuel shows lean.

Your exactly where I would expect you to be ET and MPH wise and exactly where others are hitting those same limiters ET and MPH wise.

JJ

 

[mbreinin]

My 23psi is a general statement. "around 23lbs or more" is where you start to hit the limiter depending on conditions etc...

You can make 25 and everything be perfect and then the next hit you will hit a limiter. We have done it several times with our car and its something everyone is still working on to figure out. Throttle closes, boost is dumped to around 10 and airfuel shows lean.

Your exactly where I would expect you to be ET and MPH wise and exactly where others are hitting those same limiters ET and MPH wise.

JJ

The only time I have seen a closing of the throttle was on this pass, when we exceeded the boost target in the tune. It was too bad, since it cost me. When it was leaning out on Friday night, it was still cranking the boost and the throttle was open. The pressure dropped at the rail, which indicated that we had exceeded the raw capacity of the pump. I know people are struggling with the idea that I could max it out, but the measured AFRs in the log don't lie, or the rear fuel pressure readings. Would Ford build in a limiter for protection that would lean the car out to the point where it was dangerous? What kind of protection is that?

Mike

 

[JJ@WMS]

In a MAF car when the MAF is considered failed by the computer it then defaults to fuel tables that are leaner and timing tables which have more spark so yes, Ford could very well have a limiter that your hitting that would lean the car out. ( I know the EB is not a MAF car, thats just a comparison)

So now your saying you logged fuel pressure and it was dropping? Originally you only said it was going lean due to observed airfuel readings. Could you post the log of that fuel pressure drop please?

JJ

 

[mbreinin]

In a MAF car when the MAF is considered failed by the computer it then defaults to fuel tables that are leaner and timing tables which have more spark so yes, Ford could very well have a limiter that your hitting that would lean the car out. ( I know the EB is not a MAF car, thats just a comparison)

So now your saying you logged fuel pressure and it was dropping? Originally you only said it was going lean due to observed airfuel readings. Could you post the log of that fuel pressure drop please?

JJ

I will have to get it off of my home computer. Of course we log fuel pressure.

Mike

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