Tires for Daytona

[TeeLew]

I run a GT500. My numbers are not applicable to yours. Go into your manual supplement and start with the recommended settings. The way you verify them is use a tire pyrometer and check the inside vs the outside of the tires tread. You are looking for a delta of less than 15 degrees. Don't go nuts with the camber because you are not running on a small tech scale track.

Congrats on the condescending post of the day.

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[TeeLew]

What are your alignment numbers?

It's going to depend on what you have done to your car, but an S550 is an S550.

Camber: -2.5* front / -2.0* rear
Toe: 0.25mm in per side front / 2mm in per side rear on an 18" rim (don't make me calculate degrees)
Equal caster numbers if you can change it, but have the 'light' side at maximum.

 

[Tomster]

Congrats on the condescending post of the day.

How so? Two different cars, two different alignment settings. Are you looking for a problem?

 

[GJarrett]

It's going to depend on what you have done to your car, but an S550 is an S550.

Camber: -2.5* front / -2.0* rear
Toe: 0.25mm in per side front / 2mm in per side rear on an 18" rim (don't make me calculate degrees)
Equal caster numbers if you can change it, but have the 'light' side at maximum.

I was thinking the same camber numbers as you have, but have read that zero toe in front is a good track setting. Explain/educate me a little on the toe settings you suggest if you can, please. Newbie learning op for me.

 

[Tomster]

It's going to depend on what you have done to your car, but an S550 is an S550.

Camber: -2.5* front / -2.0* rear
Toe: 0.25mm in per side front / 2mm in per side rear on an 18" rim (don't make me calculate degrees)
Equal caster numbers if you can change it, but have the 'light' side at maximum.

No, weight, tire size, and track all influence the alignment settings you would need.

A short, more technical track would use more negative camber. Did you ever notice the GT350 recommended alignment settings are different than the GT500? The difference between the R and base? CFTP? All different.

If you don't know what you are talking about, don't give advice.

 

[TeeLew]

If you don't know what you are talking about, don't give advice.

Cupcake, I could make you look very, very silly right now. Stop it.

Yes, there are different factory settings for a stock alignment. On a track, if they're on the same basic tire, they will all run well with the same basic alignment even with slightly different spring/bar packages. It doesn't particularly matter if you're on the all-singing and dancing GT500 or the base of the base Eco's. They're all the same chassis. and the uprights aren't enough of a difference to change anything. I'm basing my numbers off the RE-71 tire.

For front toe, I've found zero works well, but just a touch toe-in seems to improve the front response.

General rule of thumb:

Toe-in gives the outside tire the smallest amount of slip angle turning the direction you want to turn. Because of this, it can quicken the initial point of the nose. After the initial turn-in, the steering geometry becomes a much bigger player. Having said that, I didn't feel a difference in mid-corner grip between zero and even 1mm of toe-in. A quicker turn-in is not always good thing. If it reduces your confidence on corner entry, change it.

Toe-out gives the outside front tire the smallest amount of slip angle the opposite direction of the turn. Because of this, you have to turn through a dead-band where the tire slip angle goes from one direction to the other. Toe out will slow that initial response and provide stability. This may allow you to be more aggressive on corner entry and turn the car earlier, in which case, it's what you want.

Bushing deflections will also have an influence on what you end up running. If you're on bearings, your toe will be different than if you're on stock bushings. It's hard to know how much.

 

[Tomster]

Cupcake, I could make you look very, very silly right now. Stop it.

Yes, there are different factory settings for a stock alignment. On a track, if they're on the same basic tire, they will all run well with the same basic alignment even with slightly different spring/bar packages. It doesn't particularly matter if you're on the all-singing and dancing GT500 or the base of the base Eco's. They're all the same chassis. and the uprights aren't enough of a difference to change anything. I'm basing my numbers off the RE-71 tire.

For front toe, I've found zero works well, but just a touch toe-in seems to improve the front response.

General rule of thumb:

Toe-in gives the outside tire the smallest amount of slip angle turning the direction you want to turn. Because of this, it can quicken the initial point of the nose. After the initial turn-in, the steering geometry becomes a much bigger player. Having said that, I didn't feel a difference in mid-corner grip between zero and even 1mm of toe-in. A quicker turn-in is not always good thing. If it reduces your confidence on corner entry, change it.

Toe-out gives the outside front tire the smallest amount of slip angle the opposite direction of the turn. Because of this, you have to turn through a dead-band where the tire slip angle goes from one direction to the other. Toe out will slow that initial response and provide stability. This may allow you to be more aggressive on corner entry and turn the car earlier, in which case, it's what you want.

Bushing deflections will also have an influence on what you end up running. If you're on bearings, your toe will be different than if you're on stock bushings. It's hard to know how much.

Cupcake? You are being an ass. You say "yes, there are different settings for a factory alignment". All singing and dancing GT500? Yes there is a difference. If there wasn't, Ford wouldn't suggest different numbers for different versions of the 500 or the 350.

You are offering rules of thumb. He did not ask for rules of thumb. My settings will be different than his based upon measured performance, trial and error, and the track and its conditions. There are not many tracks that are as unforgiving on tires as Daytona. I don 't think it would be responsible to offer advice on any specific track unless I have been there and ran it in the same car. Your advice could put someone in a bad situation.

For the intermediate that the driver claims to be, the best thing to do is go to his manuals supplement and start with the basic settings and adjust them from there. I don't track a mustang GT. I wouldn't begin to try to tell someone what the settings should be unless I was using the same car, same tires, and same track. Again, it all changes based upon the track.

There is no reason for you to be an asshat. You can debate or make your position clear without having to be a troll.

edit to add some alignment recommendations from michelin. As you can see, there is no "one size fits all"

 

[TeeLew]

JFC, the pearls before swine thing gets fucking old.

An S550 is pretty much an S550. Yours has more power. That doesn't change basics of the alignment. I specified the tires. Different tires will need fine tuning, but these numbers will be a good start. Use that info as you will. What I wrote was not, "rules of thumb," it was an explanation so you can make the choice on your own. That's not the same thing. I can't give you an exact spec, because it will change based on a myriad of factors. Regardless, a factory alignment is in no way optimized for a racetrack, whether or not your little advertorial said so.

And, yes, I am being an ass because you are being an ass, and I'm a lot better at it, Jack.

 

[Tomster]

Which was what I suggested. Take the recommended settings and tweak them from there.

Bad day or something?

 

[GJarrett]

Hey guys, there's some good information on this thread. If I may request, please tone it down before the thread disappears, thanks
... or maybe I'm a wimp and need to get off the Big Boy GT500 forum and back to the Ecoboost one...

 

[TeeLew]

Which was what I suggested. Take the recommended settings and tweak them from there.

Bad day or something?

I recommended different settings which would be a closer start to wherever he's going to end up. IDGAF what you put on your car, he was asking for actual numbers instead of being preached to about factory alignments. It may shock you to hear this, but I generally don't do things, "By the book." Those are going to be dictated by the individual R&H engineer that was responsible for that model. All the models are an evolution of the same basic philosophy. Some are biased more one direction or the other and the tire sizes have a big influence, but none of Ford's numbers are massive departures and none of them are specific to a racetrack.

Installing camber plates gives you a lot more room for tuning on the front end, which is essential for tire wear and balance on a track. Most plates will get you to about -2.5* camber without opening up the strut hole, which is why I recommended that setting. Increasing camber from there will give more front grip, but, unless you want to run an asymmetric setup, you'll knock the inside edge off your FL tire (in the banking) if you go too high. Michelins are great tires, but they are specifically prone to this type of wear. Ideally, you'd run more camber on the right than the left side of the car, but we aren't doing a Daytona specific alignment. Also, camber has a big effect on tire load capacity. As you increase negative camber, you decrease the load capacity. That's also why I wouldn't recommend a high negative camber setting here.

-2.2* camber is about the max most people can get on the rear of the car. I find I don't need to run that high to balance the car. The rear is a multi-link as opposed to the front strut, so it has more camber gain and will not need as much static camber. Reducing negative camber will probably help traction in the Horseshoes, but make the car less stable in the Kink and Bus-Stop.

Tires will probably have the most grip in the 28-32 psi range. Running them at 35 hot will give you a little extra margin on tire structure (especially during the first lap or two) without turning the infield into a Slip-and-Slide at the end of the session.

And, no, not a particularly bad day, I just get sick of the Shelby-guy schtick, which was your opening. It's a Mustang. They're all just F'ing Mustangs. Have fun with it, but it's not a Bugatti, Dude, no matter what the sales guy told you.

 

[Tomster]

I recommended different settings which would be a closer start to wherever he's going to end up. IDGAF what you put on your car, he was asking for actual numbers instead of being preached to about factory alignments. It may shock you to hear this, but I generally don't do things, "By the book." Those are going to be dictated by the individual R&H engineer that was responsible for that model. All the models are an evolution of the same basic philosophy. Some are biased more one direction or the other and the tire sizes have a big influence, but none of Ford's numbers are massive departures and none of them are specific to a racetrack.

Installing camber plates gives you a lot more room for tuning on the front end, which is essential for tire wear and balance on a track. Most plates will get you to about -2.5* camber without opening up the strut hole, which is why I recommended that setting. Increasing camber from there will give more front grip, but, unless you want to run an asymmetric setup, you'll knock the inside edge off your FL tire (in the banking) if you go too high. Michelins are great tires, but they are specifically prone to this type of wear. Ideally, you'd run more camber on the right than the left side of the car, but we aren't doing a Daytona specific alignment. Also, camber has a big effect on tire load capacity. As you increase negative camber, you decrease the load capacity. That's also why I wouldn't recommend a high negative camber setting here.

-2.2* camber is about the max most people can get on the rear of the car. I find I don't need to run that high to balance the car. The rear is a multi-link as opposed to the front strut, so it has more camber gain and will not need as much static camber. Reducing negative camber will probably help traction in the Horseshoes, but make the car less stable in the Kink and Bus-Stop.

Pressures will probably have the most grip in the 28-32 psi range. Running them at 35 hot will give you a little extra margin on tire structure (especially during the first lap or two) without turning the infield into a Slip-and-Slide at the end of the session.

And, no, not a particularly bad day, I just get sick of the Shelby-guy schtick, which was your opening. It's a Mustang. They're all just F'ing Mustangs. Have fun with it, but it's not a Bugatti, Dude, no matter what the sales guy told you.

You are a crude SOB. Certainly not a benevolent enthusiast. Stop by and say hello next time you are at Daytona.

The numbers I run are based in large by a michelin engineer from when I started to run Daytona. Tweaked them over time.

Edited to add: you mentioned you run lower pressures on your right side than the left? That's idiotic.

Are you finished with your offense?

 

[Tomster]

I'd start with morning colds around 28psi lefts and 27 rights

Really.....

 

[TeeLew]

Edited to add: you mentioned you run lower pressures on your right side than the left? That's idiotic.

You *have* to stagger the cold pressures at Daytona if you want them to be even when they're hot, because the right hand side will have a greater pressure rise than the left. I recommended 35 hot all around.

And your retort?

 

[GTP]

I run a GT500. My numbers are not applicable to yours. Go into your manual supplement and start with the recommended settings. The way you verify them is use a tire pyrometer and check the inside vs the outside of the tires tread. You are looking for a delta of less than 15 degrees. Don't go nuts with the camber because you are not running on a small tech scale track.

I was only asking for information, not advice. I was just curious how your numbers deviate from those in the manual, since Daytona is not your typical HPDE track.

Oh, and does your Mustang GT have trans and diff coolers? Probably going to need them......

Yes, I designed, fabricated, installed, and tested them myself. Again, I was not asking for advice on how to prepare for Daytona.


I'm very picky about my alignment, and I do my own string alignment, and use toe plates a lot. I run slight asymmetric camber for CW tracks. I slotted my struts for an extra degree negative camber. And I have to swap wheels, camber, and toe upon arriving at the track and before I leave.

I very much doubt I will ever run Daytona.
I'm simply curious about what alignment settings you use at Daytona. Care to share?

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