Is this power achievable with this build ?

[Cory S]

Already scarce here in SE PA where I am. I drive 15 miles each way to fill up and I fill up additional containers too. I wouldn't be able to do it if my car were a daily driver.

Id be ecstatic to drive a mere 15 miles for Ethanol at the pump. WTF... I drive 105 miles for it now, and pick up 75-100 gallons at at a time.

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[TRP45ACP]

Agree with what is being said. Personally, I would be very careful running 700 hp with 93 octane let alone 91. I would shoot for 700hp with octane booster used every time. Make sure to log your car often to really determine what it going on while keeping timing somewhat conservative.

 

[seely]

Id be ecstatic to drive a mere 15 miles for Ethanol at the pump. WTF... I drive 105 miles for it now, and pick up 75-100 gallons at at a time.

that's ridiculous

Read the fine print. He didn’t say it made that ON 91, just a 91 tune. I would go out on a limb and say the vast majority of pump gas numbers you see over 700 are using some form of octane booster. They are extremely effective. On true pump 91 and 93 mid-upper 600’s is much more common.

"After running through this fuel mixture, Lee changed up the tune for 91 octane pump gas, as we can’t get 93 octane in my area. The car still exceeded my expectations, laying down 780 hp and 630 lb-ft of torque."

This is what I read, he said he cant get 93octane. Its vague but you're right not to assume he ran 91 for the 780hp.

So i've seen multiple ads for the whipple gen2-3 kit stating that 93 or 91 is recommended/fine. I guess that is with their conservative whipple tune. I'm just learning here. I would be okay with running a tune for 91 if its safe. I think no matter what, the extra HP is just what im looking for 660-780hp at the motor for street performance.

Agree with what is being said. Personally, I would be very careful running 700 hp with 93 octane let alone 91. I would shoot for 700hp with octane booster used every time. Make sure to log your car often to really determine what it going on while keeping timing somewhat conservative.

What is your argument for that? This is the common advise not to run a higher octane than 93 or 91 for 700hp, but is it based on some evidence?

im not saying youre wrong but like to learn more about this.

 

[engineermike]

@seely it’s not that you shouldn’t make 780 on true 91 or 93; it’s that you can’t. Not at 12/1 compression, at least. If and when you put it on the dyno and log it, you will find that the spark timing is running up against the knock limit and will limit power to some number in the 600’s and low/mid 500’s on torque. The only way around it is to numb the knock sensors (not recommended) or add octane.

I don’t know that I would call the Whipple tune “conservative”. The Whipple tune runs spark right into knock repeatedly, which ensures max power but could be risky. If you run 93 and add octane booster, then you will hit the max timing it lets you have (18.5 depending on which tune update you’re on) without knock, but even 18.5 deg won’t make anywhere near 780 rwhp. I’ve run 20-21 and still didn’t break 700, actually.

 

[seely]

@seely it’s not that you shouldn’t make 780 on true 91 or 93; it’s that you can’t. Not at 12/1 compression, at least. If and when you put it on the dyno and log it, you will find that the spark timing is running up against the knock limit and will limit power to some number in the 600’s and low/mid 500’s on torque. The only way around it is to numb the knock sensors (not recommended) or add octane.

I don’t know that I would call the Whipple tune “conservative”. The Whipple tune runs spark right into knock repeatedly, which ensures max power but could be risky. If you run 93 and add octane booster, then you will hit the max timing it lets you have (18.5 depending on which tune update you’re on) without knock, but even 18.5 deg won’t make anywhere near 780 rwhp. I’ve run 20-21 and still didn’t break 700, actually.

"you will find that the spark timing is running up against the knock limit and will limit power"

could you explain this a little more? is it that the ECU will detect spark knock and cut power?


So on a different note, i dont mind using octane booster. I just figured it might be a pain? i dont mind the cost and having to mix it in if i can run close to 700hp safely. Also figured additives are bad for the engine but have not really spent much time looking into it.


what is "octane adjust"
im reading this post https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/my-new-grabber-blue-17-whipple-stage-2-on-91-octane.144118/

 

[engineermike]

"you will find that the spark timing is running up against the knock limit and will limit power"

could you explain this a little more? is it that the ECU will detect spark knock and cut power?

ECU will detect knock and cut spark timing.

So on a different note, i dont mind using octane booster. I just figured it might be a pain? i dont mind the cost and having to mix it in if i can run close to 700hp safely. Also figured additives are bad for the engine but have not really spent much time looking into it.

I can’t stand mixing crap into every fill up. I also can’t tolerate filling up every 150 miles. But that’s just me.

what is "octane adjust"
im reading this post https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/my-new-grabber-blue-17-whipple-stage-2-on-91-octane.144118/

Octane adjust isnt active on the Gen3 coyote, stock or supercharged.

 

[illtal]

I got 704 WHP SAE/723 STD on 93, but I also spray meth, so as @engineermike says, Extra Octane. You need it to run a big number. Pump doesn't have enough to get that kind of number unless you lower the compression, and/or up the displacement.

I would have to agree, with him you would need an octane booster to stabilize the maximum amount timing at the right amount of boost to go over 700

 

[seely]

ECU will detect knock and cut spark timing.



I can’t stand mixing crap into every fill up. I also can’t tolerate filling up every 150 miles. But that’s just me.



Octane adjust isnt active on the Gen3 coyote, stock or supercharged.

cool that makes sense. isn't that what Octane adjust or adaptive octane is? it advances or retards the timing based on knock. I guess the difference is detecting octane vs knock (I dont see how they would detect octane though other than checking if theres spark knock so it seems the same)


i was watching this video , but seems like this might be something else.
like a custom tune

 

[illtal]

cool that makes sense. isn't that what Octane adjust or adaptive octane is? it advances or retards the timing based on knock. I guess the difference is detecting octane vs knock (I dont see how they would detect octane though other than checking if theres spark knock so it seems the same)

Timing retard based upon knock threshold has a set static timing it cannot be changed via having more octane available. The level that your tune caps the timing advance/retard at is up to your tuner.

 

[engineermike]

cool that makes sense. isn't that what Octane adjust or adaptive octane is? it advances or retards the timing based on knock. I guess the difference is detecting octane vs knock (I dont see how they would detect octane though other than checking if theres spark knock so it seems the same)

The Gen3 coyote and virtually all other fords will advance the timing at wot until it knocks, back it off, then advance again. The algorithms are complicated and fascinating, with lots of variations from vehicle to vehicle.

At wot, the timing starts off using the “borderline” timing table, which is where it would typically expect knock on 87 Octane. It advances from there. Octane adjust, or adaptive, is where the pcm learns over time that it can consistently add (or subtract) timing. It deduces a correction to apply to the borderline values. That way, you don’t have to wait as long for it to advance the timing when you go wot because it starts at a value closer to the knock limit. It still usually finds the knock limit either way.

On the Gen3 coyote and every aftermarket tune I’ve seen for one, octane adjust is disabled. Be wary of anyone who claims to have it working on one. The borderline tables must be on-point for this to work properly and from what I’ve seen, only the stock borderline tables are anywhere near accurate. For instance, if the borderline timing table at 50% load is 10 deg lower than it should be, then the adaptive might erroneously deduce that the car has 97 octane in it and add 5 deg timing at wot, resulting in disaster….even though the timing might have been otherwise set up conservatively.

 

[markmurfie]

cool that makes sense. isn't that what Octane adjust or adaptive octane is? it advances or retards the timing based on knock. I guess the difference is detecting octane vs knock (I dont see how they would detect octane though other than checking if theres spark knock so it seems the same)

Adaptive octane is as Mike described, an adjustment to the borderline table value, through a ratio. OAR, octane adjustment ratio. You see Eco boost owners discuss it all the time. Its similar to the many other borderline correction Ford applies to borderline values ,IAT, ECT, Lambda, ect. all applied before spark advance final total(SAFTOT). Its not the knock sensors adding more or less them selfs, but the learned beahvior of the knock sensors and a corection to reduce their required activity.
If Lund enabled it in their NA and boosted tunes, they would want you to log OAR, and in Alex's video he would have been watching OAR go from something like 1 to -1 as "higher octane" was learned. He would have seen that at the same 1-2* adding by the knock PID, he would have gotten 13* with no additive, then 17* with additive. They know about this, they tune eco boost platforms. I suspect, as with flex fuel logic, they would probably want to disable it, and take control away from the ECU that could potentially put the car in an unsafe condition. Leaving it up to the owner to ensure they do not use lower than reccomended octane fuels.

You are right, RON and MON standard test adjust the CFR( Cooperative Fuel Research) engines compression ratio until a determined knock intensity threshold is detected then compare the fuels threshold to a octane/heptane mixture. Very controled enviroment compared to a coyote engine in various real world conditions, adjusting spark until a knock intensity threshold. Same general concept tho, just any ovelooked corrections or error not taken into account by the known corrections, are all categorized into "octane adjustment" by the ECU. Fords algorithms certainly are complicated and fascinating.

Why is it a big deal to Ford, and not aftermarket tuners(yet)?
All this has a huge effect on exhaust gas temperatures, and whether the catalytic converters will work well enough. Also on the other end wether they melt or not. Ideally, the engine would reach MBT spark advance on the lowest octane available, but demand/ the need for efficency, fuel economy, more HP forces them away from that safety. Forcing the ECU to have such complicated control. Just put bigger converters on engines, and they don't work well enough to meet emissions standards.

 

[seely]

The Gen3 coyote and virtually all other fords will advance the timing at wot until it knocks, back it off, then advance again. The algorithms are complicated and fascinating, with lots of variations from vehicle to vehicle.

At wot, the timing starts off using the “borderline” timing table, which is where it would typically expect knock on 87 Octane. It advances from there. Octane adjust, or adaptive, is where the pcm learns over time that it can consistently add (or subtract) timing. It deduces a correction to apply to the borderline values. That way, you don’t have to wait as long for it to advance the timing when you go wot because it starts at a value closer to the knock limit. It still usually finds the knock limit either way.

On the Gen3 coyote and every aftermarket tune I’ve seen for one, octane adjust is disabled. Be wary of anyone who claims to have it working on one. The borderline tables must be on-point for this to work properly and from what I’ve seen, only the stock borderline tables are anywhere near accurate. For instance, if the borderline timing table at 50% load is 10 deg lower than it should be, then the adaptive might erroneously deduce that the car has 97 octane in it and add 5 deg timing at wot, resulting in disaster….even though the timing might have been otherwise set up conservatively.

Okay i guess i was a little confused between this algorithm on the ECU vs octane adjust, since you said it is disabled for the the Gen3 but i understand the difference now.

Thanks for the info ill keep it in mind. Here I thought I could just buy a gen 3 coyote and slap a super charger on it, replace OPGS and have a 760hp car.

So far based on what everyone has said it seems like if i go the super charger route shooting for 600hp or maybe a little over i just want to have a "conservative" tune that doesn't retard timing too much within the knock threshold or borderline timing table? and be safe on 91 octane. Please correct me if im wrong... im not saying i fully understand everything yet but this is where im kind of thinking rn.

BTW If you're curious what my whole intention is with this car, it is to build the engine up with these pretty much bolt-on kits, it be a learning process, add mechanical experience and have a fun car to drive. I'm mechanically inclined I have plenty of experience with various mechanical jobs and I watched entire step by step videos on how to replace OPGs . install the whipple and they dont seem like anything im not able to do. That being said whether or not 700hp is safe to run is really the first step in the process so far and thats why i made this post, so its not 100% important ideally the end result is to build a cool street car with more than stock HP, that has more than an exhaust setup and enjoy it SAFELY.

Adaptive octane is as Mike described, an adjustment to the borderline table value, through a ratio. OAR, octane adjustment ratio. You see Eco boost owners discuss it all the time. Its similar to the many other borderline correction Ford applies to borderline values ,IAT, ECT, Lambda, ect. all applied before spark advance final total(SAFTOT). Its not the knock sensors adding more or less them selfs, but the learned beahvior of the knock sensors and a corection to reduce their required activity.
If Lund enabled it in their NA and boosted tunes, they would want you to log OAR, and in Alex's video he would have been watching OAR go from something like 1 to -1 as "higher octane" was learned. He would have seen that at the same 1-2* adding by the knock PID, he would have gotten 13* with no additive, then 17* with additive. They know about this, they tune eco boost platforms. I suspect, as with flex fuel logic, they would probably want to disable it, and take control away from the ECU that could potentially put the car in an unsafe condition. Leaving it up to the owner to ensure they do not use lower than reccomended octane fuels.

You are right, RON and MON standard test adjust the CFR( Cooperative Fuel Research) engines compression ratio until a determined knock intensity threshold is detected then compare the fuels threshold to a octane/heptane mixture. Very controled enviroment compared to a coyote engine in various real world conditions, adjusting spark until a knock intensity threshold. Same general concept tho, just any ovelooked corrections or error not taken into account by the known corrections, are all categorized into "octane adjustment" by the ECU. Fords algorithms certainly are complicated and fascinating.

Why is it a big deal to Ford, and not aftermarket tuners(yet)?
All this has a huge effect on exhaust gas temperatures, and whether the catalytic converters will work well enough. Also on the other end wether they melt or not. Ideally, the engine would reach MBT spark advance on the lowest octane available, but demand/ the need for efficency, fuel economy, more HP forces them away from that safety. Forcing the ECU to have such complicated control. Just put bigger converters on engines, and they don't work well enough to meet emissions standards.

Thanks for this more detailed explanation of the AO algorithm. I can see why people are suggesting octane boost now. I'd be curious to see some examples of engine failure from running these non-recommended setups.

 

[seely]

Update: Found TWO gas stations that sell E85!! around 7-15miles away from my house. Not bad in my opinion so might be in luck!

Just need to figure out a way to install the SC and have a tunes for 91 and E85 that i can switch back and forth from when E85 becomes inaccessible.

 

[TonyHawk]

Looking to make around 720-740hp+

Planning to install the whipple 2 on a 2019 GT (extra parts would be OPGs , oil pump and clutch) Hoping to keep everything else stock and have it tuned for 91 octane and make that much power with safe amount of boost.

I've followed a few builds that make over 700 run 91 but they also have upgraded exhausts.

Roush State 1 kit is 700 HP at the crank on 91 octane. 750 Stage 2 on 93 octane. I would think the Whipple is that at least.

 

[illtal]

Roush State 1 kit is 700 HP at the crank on 91 octane. 750 Stage 2 on 93 octane. I would think the Whipple is that at least.

Both of those figure would put him under 700 wheel hp

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