Poor Mustang GT lap on "The Grand Tour"?

[bnightstar]

Oh - so 20,000 Euros is only $6,000? I thought they were roughly equivalent in value between the dollar and Euro. Earlier you said the RS was 20,000 Euros cheaper than the Mustang.

My GT is 2017 after all so it was staying on the lot for a lot of time a 2019 GT Premium is 64 000$ so it's over 20000$ difference. If we are talking base price then it's 56000$ vs 40000$. So it's a big difference. Ether way my Ford dealership is not selling RS at the moment ether :(.

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[bnightstar]

My next car is probably going to be the AWD Mazda3 because it's the only updated platform AWD sedan from any manufacturer I'd buy. If the Fusion got a refresh, I'd be there, but no love from Ford.

Yeah I find the Mazda3 to be really good looking car.

 

[Alej]

On a small, tight track with lots of turns and cool temperatures with the stock Mustang GT all season tires, it isn't going to be super fast. It's not really indicative of what the car is capable of. Most people who take their Mustang to the track make a few modifications.

Just tires will make a huge difference and catch the Mustang GT up to most of the other cars mentioned. In the real world the GT is quick and will compete well with the other cars mentioned. It's much faster than the RS or the Type R if you put comparable tires on it. Additional mods just mean the GT will be that much quicker.

THIS!

I don't argue that the Mustang GT has a potential to be faster on track that's obvious with the PP2 which is 4-5 seconds per lap faster than PP1. I just argue that out of the box (factory) PP1 is slower than a Type R on the track. If you add SC and some Steeda suspension for example obviously the Mustang GT will be faster but that's not how the car come from the factory.

In my experience, the default tires the PP comes with are even downright dangerous for track use. They are too small for the car size, weight and power. After nearly crashing once (the tires can abandon you mid-grip/mid-turn instantly) I decided to go wider and better compound (not too extreme, NT05). These tires talk to you and grab the surface like claws, the difference is mind blowing... my times (albeit amateur noob level so could be many other things too) were reduced drastically in a matter of several sessions while getting used to the new grip limit.

Then added ford performance track handling pack, and power pack 3 and forget it, the type Rs, M3s, Focus, Stis, etc of the group don’t really stand a chance (at least at our drivers level group). Some of them are even all stripped.

But yeah, I’ll give you that, the way it comes stock is a handicapped vehicle for some reason with tons of potential hidden.

 

[bnightstar]

THIS!
In my experience, the default tires the PP comes with are even downright dangerous for track use. They are too small for the car size, weight and power. After nearly crashing once (the tires can abandon you mid-grip/mid-turn instantly) I decided to go wider and better compound (not too extreme, NT05). These tires talk to you and grab the surface like claws, the difference is mind blowing... my times (albeit amateur noob level so could be many other things too) were reduced drastically in a matter of several sessions while getting used to the new grip limit.

Then added ford performance track handling pack, and power pack 3 and forget it, the type Rs, M3s, Focus, Stis, etc of the group don’t really stand a chance (at least at our drivers level group). Some of them are even all stripped.

But yeah, I’ll give you that, the way it comes stock is a handicapped vehicle for some reason with tons of potential hidden.

I fully agree that the PZero's as all Pirelli tires are totally not suitable for driving not only on track but on street as well this is my 3rd set of tires made by Pirelli and every time the feeling is the same they just sucks. I probably will go with 275/40 square with Michelin PS4S to be fair as I don't want to run spacers etc. Power Pack 3 is also on my list but for track handling will probably go with the Steeda pack+stop the hop pack.

But my point in this tread is that stock the GT PP is not fast enough around tracks. I don't argue that the car has a lot of potential and I think that the new 2.3 HiPO Mustang will be amazing around tracks but for what is worth the GT is just not that.

 

[Arthonon]

I fully agree that the PZero's as all Pirelli tires are totally not suitable for driving not only on track but on street as well this is my 3rd set of tires made by Pirelli and every time the feeling is the same they just sucks. I probably will go with 275/40 square with Michelin PS4S to be fair as I don't want to run spacers etc. Power Pack 3 is also on my list but for track handling will probably go with the Steeda pack+stop the hop pack.

But my point in this tread is that stock the GT PP is not fast enough around tracks. I don't argue that the car has a lot of potential and I think that the new 2.3 HiPO Mustang will be amazing around tracks but for what is worth the GT is just not that.

This has been discussed in many threads, but Ford didn't equip the GT/PP1 to be a track monster, but to be a performance car you can live with on a daily basis. To get more track prowess you'd need to go PP2, GT350, or do some mods, and I think that's their business plan. And it seems to work because they do sell a good number of them.

Most cars, stock, are not good track cars. Just to confirm, you did see that the Type R that Honda ran on the ring wasn't stock either, right?

 

[Norm Peterson]

I don't argue that the Mustang GT has a potential to be faster on track that's obvious with the PP2 which is 4-5 seconds per lap faster than PP1. I just argue that out of the box (factory) PP1 is slower than a Type R on the track. If you add SC and some Steeda suspension for example obviously the Mustang GT will be faster but that's not how the car come from the factory.

Your bias is showing when you compare the top-for-the-track Civic and Focus trims against the only mildly-better-than-base PP1 Mustang. Not really any better than comparing the PP1 Mustang against the ZL1 1LE Camaro.


Norm

 

[bnightstar]

This has been discussed in many threads, but Ford didn't equip the GT/PP1 to be a track monster, but to be a performance car you can live with on a daily basis. To get more track prowess you'd need to go PP2, GT350, or do some mods, and I think that's their business plan. And it seems to work because they do sell a good number of them.

Most cars, stock, are not good track cars. Just to confirm, you did see that the Type R that Honda ran on the ring wasn't stock either, right?

And then again I'm in Europe where nor PP2 nor GT350 is available to order.

 

[bnightstar]

Your bias is showing when you compare the top-for-the-track Civic and Focus trims against the only mildly-better-than-base PP1 Mustang. Not really any better than comparing the PP1 Mustang against the ZL1 1LE Camaro.


Norm

That's the only version of the GT we have in europe though :(

 

[Arthonon]

And then again I'm in Europe where nor PP2 nor GT350 is available to order.

Nor is the Type R that made that run on the 'Ring. You'd have to buy it, then mod it to get the performance Honda got on that run, which you might be able to do with a Mustang as well.

 

[bnightstar]

Nor is the Type R that made that run on the 'Ring. You'd have to buy it, then mod it to get the performance Honda got on that run, which you might be able to do with a Mustang as well.

Actually if you read the article the time there was 7:50 after that Honda made a run with the stock one for 7:43 ;) And it’s no longer available as a new Type-R got released but still easy to find it second hand.

 

[Hack]

Your bias is showing when you compare the top-for-the-track Civic and Focus trims against the only mildly-better-than-base PP1 Mustang. Not really any better than comparing the PP1 Mustang against the ZL1 1LE Camaro.

Norm

He's actually comparing a MODIFIED and also top of the line Honda to stock lower versions of the Mustang.

Nor is the Type R that made that run on the 'Ring. You'd have to buy it, then mod it to get the performance Honda got on that run, which you might be able to do with a Mustang as well.

The truth comes out!!

 

[Arthonon]

Actually if you read the article the time there was 7:50 after that Honda made a run with the stock one for 7:43 ;) And it’s no longer available as a new Type-R got released but still easy to find it second hand.

According to this article:
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-ca...r-reclaims-fastest-fwd-record-at-nurburgring/

We should note that, as with previous 'Ring lap records, the Civic Type R that notched this lap was a preproduction unit. Honda claims that the roll cage visible in the car was a "full floating" design that "did not provide any additional rigidity to the body." The added weight of the cage was compensated by removing the car's infotainment system and rear seats, and Honda says the car was using "street legal, track-focused tires."

So almost certainly not stock tires, and it was a pre-production car. Who knows, maybe the production car is even faster, but you'd probably still have put better tires on it. Looking at the performance of it on the Lightning lap, and being 10 seconds behind the PP2, I am not really sure what performance to expect.

 

[bnightstar]

According to this article:
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-ca...r-reclaims-fastest-fwd-record-at-nurburgring/

We should note that, as with previous 'Ring lap records, the Civic Type R that notched this lap was a preproduction unit. Honda claims that the roll cage visible in the car was a "full floating" design that "did not provide any additional rigidity to the body." The added weight of the cage was compensated by removing the car's infotainment system and rear seats, and Honda says the car was using "street legal, track-focused tires."

So almost certainly not stock tires, and it was a pre-production car. Who knows, maybe the production car is even faster, but you'd probably still have put better tires on it. Looking at the performance of it on the Lightning lap, and being 10 seconds behind the PP2, I am not really sure what performance to expect.

I feel like I'm moving in circles here we already discussed this. But how you explain the Fasteslaps times for Seres for example ?

https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/serres-racing-circuit

Both cars driven by same Driver and the Type-R is 3 seconds faster ? I suppose this is also the Prototype Civic Type-R isn't it ?

I understand I'm in a Mustang forum and I'm a Mustang GT owner and fanboy to be fair and in such a forum Mustang is faster than anything under the moon and also around the moon and after the moon. But the truth is that Civic Type-R is faster around tracks than a Mustang GT PP1 sure probably the GT has more tuning potential and bigger after market but the Civic Type-R is amazing car. I seen one on the track though in a different class than my car but it beat me with 9 seconds difference on a 2KM track. I admit I'm not a fast driver but even if the Civic driver was riding my Mustang he still would have been faster with the Civic.

 

[Arthonon]

I feel like I'm moving in circles here we already discussed this. But how you explain the Fasteslaps times for Seres for example ?

https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/serres-racing-circuit

Both cars driven by same Driver and the Type-R is 3 seconds faster ? I suppose this is also the Prototype Civic Type-R isn't it ?

I understand I'm in a Mustang forum and I'm a Mustang GT owner and fanboy to be fair and in such a forum Mustang is faster than anything under the moon and also around the moon and after the moon. But the truth is that Civic Type-R is faster around tracks than a Mustang GT PP1 sure probably the GT has more tuning potential and bigger after market but the Civic Type-R is amazing car. I seen one on the track though in a different class than my car but it beat me with 9 seconds difference on a 2KM track. I admit I'm not a fast driver but even if the Civic driver was riding my Mustang he still would have been faster with the Civic.

You're right, we are going in circles, and I think it's because you keep posting information that doesn't offer any solid proof of what you're saying. I'm not saying that the Mustang is faster than anything, I'm saying your methods are flawed. Taking a bunch of times from different occasions and circumstances and thinking they give you an accurate representation of how two cars compare is nuts.

The Lighting Lap was same track, same day, about as close as you can get. So far, you haven't explained how that happened if the Type R is so much better.

Look at the list in your post - the 718 Boxster beat the Type R by a second on Serres, but the 718 Cayman was beaten around the 'Ring by the Type R, and the Cayman is generally considered to be faster than the Boxster. Meaning that these runs separated by time and conditions can only give you an idea of what the car is capable of in general terms, not exactly how it compares to other vehicles.

And if you want to look at the fastestlaps.com site for info, try this out:
https://fastestlaps.com/articles/is...g-nordschleife-front-wheel-drive-record-legit

Also, if you read some of the comments, one person defending the Type R says that the air density alone could account for 10 seconds per lap difference on the 'Ring, and also mentions other variables. Which, again, is my point - looking at a bunch of random lap times from different days (especially years apart) isn't going to tell you a whole lot about how two cars directly compare.

Is a stock Type R faster than a stock Mustang GT? I really don't know, but it could be. But if all it takes is a change of tires and a few other minor changes to make the Mustang faster around a track, I don't know that many people would care, because you're going to be doing stuff like that for track work anyway.

 

[bnightstar]

Is a stock Type R faster than a stock Mustang GT? I really don't know, but it could be. But if all it takes is a change of tires and a few other minor changes to make the Mustang faster around a track, I don't know that many people would care, because you're going to be doing stuff like that for track work anyway.

Did you ever seen a Type-R in person let alone on a track at full race mode ?

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