Poor Mustang GT lap on "The Grand Tour"?

[Hack]

I don't argue that the Mustang GT has a potential to be faster on track that's obvious with the PP2 which is 4-5 seconds per lap faster than PP1. I just argue that out of the box (factory) PP1 is slower than a Type R on the track. If you add SC and some Steeda suspension for example obviously the Mustang GT will be faster but that's not how the car come from the factory.

Something doesn't add up in your math if the PP2 is 4-5 seconds faster than the PP1 but the PP2 is 10 seconds faster than the Type R. Are you still saying the PP1 isn't as fast as the Type R on some tracks?

Probably it's like I said before - if you pick a tiny little track with lots of turns a lightweight car with low power like the Type R looks good. On a higher speed track the Mustang walks away. The base GT with no changes will probably beat the Type R, given the right track. Or maybe all you have to do is run them on the same day with similar conditions versus running the GT on a rainy day and the Type R on a nice day.

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[bnightstar]

Something doesn't add up in your math if the PP2 is 4-5 seconds faster than the PP1 but the PP2 is 10 seconds faster than the Type R. Are you still saying the PP1 isn't as fast as the Type R on some tracks?

Probably it's like I said before - if you pick a tiny little track with lots of turns a lightweight car with low power like the Type R looks good. On a higher speed track the Mustang walks away. The base GT with no changes will probably beat the Type R, given the right track. Or maybe all you have to do is run them on the same day with similar conditions versus running the GT on a rainy day and the Type R on a nice day.

I honestly believe that Type R is faster than a PP1 GT 2015-2017 the new PP1 GT may be a bit faster as the facelift shape create better downforce and engine is better with higher red line etc. However overall the Type R will be faster around a track than most S550 GT's out there minus the very low number of PP2 GT's.

 

[Hack]

I honestly believe that Type R is faster than a PP1 GT 2015-2017 the new PP1 GT may be a bit faster as the facelift shape create better downforce and engine is better with higher red line etc. However overall the Type R will be faster around a track than most S550 GT's out there minus the very low number of PP2 GT's.

Understood. And I'm sure you can tell by now that what you are saying doesn't make sense to me and is difficult for me to believe. I could see a Type R being faster than an ECOboost Mustang with bad tires, but not a GT and not even an EB with good tires. I don't think the facelift to the Mustang will make a big difference in track performance. Other variables are much larger (like tests being run on different days and by different drivers).

 

[bnightstar]

Understood. And I'm sure you can tell by now that what you are saying doesn't make sense to me and is difficult for me to believe. I could see a Type R being faster than an ECOboost Mustang with bad tires, but not a GT and not even an EB with good tires. I don't think the facelift to the Mustang will make a big difference in track performance. Other variables are much larger (like tests being run on different days and by different drivers).

Yeah what I don't understand is how this is difficult to believe:

20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:43.8 Honda Civic Type R (FK8) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YSjItQneNM

20,600 m (67,600 ft) 8:07 Ford Mustang GT Performance Pack - couldn't find a video from the lap.

 

[Arthonon]

OK, then, how about this?

Here's a time for a 2017 Civic Type R around Willow Springs: 1:25.07
https://fastestlaps.com/tests/lbfpo5z1t6ls

And a 2017 Mustang GT: 1:23.97
https://fastestlaps.com/tests/c9df77t5lmrf

Same year, much closer conditions than the Nurburgring runs, and the 2017 Mustang (not a PP2, which didn't exist at the time) beats it. The Lighting Lap was pretty much the same day, so again, much better comparison than other runs that were years apart.

So since you've seen comparisons on 2 different tracks where the Mustang was faster, you're ready to say that the Mustang is the faster car, right? I mean, it sounds like that's what you feel we should do from your one example.

 

[bnightstar]

OK, then, how about this?

Here's a time for a 2017 Civic Type R around Willow Springs: 1:25.07
https://fastestlaps.com/tests/lbfpo5z1t6ls

And a 2017 Mustang GT: 1:23.97
https://fastestlaps.com/tests/c9df77t5lmrf

Same year, much closer conditions than the Nurburgring runs, and the 2017 Mustang (not a PP2, which didn't exist at the time) beats it.

So since you've seen comparisons on 2 different tracks where the Mustang was faster, you're ready to say that the Mustang is the faster car, right? I mean, it sounds like that's what you feel we should do from your one example.

Ok how about that this:

2017 Civic Type R around Serres: 1:31.93

https://fastestlaps.com/tests/cckmetnunr5i

2017 Mustang GT Serres: 1:34.78

https://fastestlaps.com/tests/lbj73nfospn7

and Around VIR:

2017 Civic Type R: 3:03.90

https://fastestlaps.com/tests/83vc6zgl9h9a

Mustang GT: 3:05.20

https://fastestlaps.com/tests/7d9j0td4v0lh

Or let me guess this are ether short circuits or the conditions are not optimal and the GT didn't have enough aftermarket on it.

 

[Arthonon]

Exactly, my point is, with different days, different track conditions, etc., you can't say that one car is way better than the other. How is it that the Mustang outruns it sometimes, but not others? You seem to feel that it's only when the Mustang wins that it should be ignored. Unless you're running the same track on the same day with the same conditions, you have no idea how the cars really compare when the numbers are that close.

The Type R is very impressive, and I'm sure it's a fun car, but looking at information gathered under potentially very different circumstances is not a reliable way to see how the cars directly compare, only the general performance capabilities of them.

 

[bnightstar]

Exactly, my point is, with different days, different track conditions, etc., you can't say that one car is way better than the other. How is it that the Mustang outruns it sometimes, but not others? You seem to feel that it's only when the Mustang wins that it should be ignored. Unless you're running the same track on the same day with the same conditions, you have no idea how the cars really compare when the numbers are that close.

The Type R is very impressive, and I'm sure it's a fun car, but looking at information gathered under potentially very different circumstances is not a reliable way to see how the cars directly compare, only the general performance capabilities of them.

On most of this tracks the Focus RS also outrun the Mustang GT. My point is that the test that Grand Tour run even on different conditions is overall an ok test as it use same driver same track. Which we can't say for the lap times in fastestslaps. But overall if on number of tracks the Civic is faster than the Focus RS and Mustang GT than probably just the Type-R is faster than them around tracks. On the other hand this morning in traffic I was driving behind 911 997 Carrera 4s and when we stepped on it it smoked me what you think is the 911 997 Carrera 4s faster than a Mustang GT ?

Also how 3 seconds difference and 20 seconds on the Nurburgring are close numbers ? Close numbers are less than 1 second. 3 seconds and more are not close numbers.

 

[Arthonon]

On most of this tracks the Focus RS also outrun the Mustang GT. My point is that the test that Grand Tour run even on different conditions is overall an ok test as it use same driver same track. Which we can't say for the lap times in fastestslaps. But overall if on number of tracks the Civic is faster than the Focus RS and Mustang GT than probably just the Type-R is faster than them around tracks. On the other hand this morning in traffic I was driving behind 911 997 Carrera 4s and when we stepped on it it smoked me what you think is the 911 997 Carrera 4s faster than a Mustang GT ?

Also how 3 seconds difference and 20 seconds on the Nurburgring are close numbers ? Close numbers are less than 1 second. 3 seconds and more are not close numbers.

Atmospheric conditions and overall track condition can have a significant impact on performance, easily accounting for a few seconds on a smaller track, which is why tests done so far apart are not always that useful for direct comparisons.

But let's switch this around - if the Type R is better, explain how the Mustang beat it on some tracks?

 

[The Rooster]

The mustang gt whether it be base, pp1,pp2, bullitt, convertible or otherwise handles excellent for 99.9% of owners. I don't see myself heading to the 'ring anytime soon and neither is pretty much anybody. Most of the jokers that will have these arguments are keyboard heroes that will never come close to pushing their cars to the limit on the road or a track. track guys will buy the car that best suits their needs and modify accordingly. Comparing the mustang to a civic is completely redundant.

 

[bnightstar]

The mustang gt whether it be base, pp1,pp2, bullitt, convertible or otherwise handles excellent for 99.9% of owners. I don't see myself heading to the 'ring anytime soon and neither is pretty much anybody. Most of the jokers that will have these arguments are keyboard heroes that will never come close to pushing their cars to the limit on the road or a track. track guys will buy the car that best suits their needs and modify accordingly. Comparing the mustang to a civic is completely redundant.

I just happen to drive on the same track as a Civic Type-R last weekend here is the result:

http://danaildaskalov.com/RESULTS.png

The Type-R was faster than my Mustang GT with 9 seconds around the track. True It's my first track day so I guess if I get the experience that the Type-R driver had I will be closer. But overall the Type-R was faster. For me a big surprise was the A45 Mercedes. Also the GT-R was only 5 seconds faster than a Type-R and the drivers were similar at experience level same conditions etc. Overall the Type-R is very good car. I do agree that the Mustang is more capable than me on the track and that it was super fun. But it's clear fact that Type-R is not a car that you underestimate. And to stay on topic the poor performance on the Mustang in the Grand Tour lap times is understandable. And for example the Ford Focus RS time and the Mustang GT time at the Grand Tour were done on the same track at the same day by the same driver as I watched this video:

 

[w3rkn]

I just happen to drive on the same track as a Civic Type-R last weekend here is the result:

http://danaildaskalov.com/RESULTS.png

The Type-R was faster than my Mustang GT with 9 seconds around the track. True It's my first track day so I guess if I get the experience that the Type-R driver had I will be closer. But overall the Type-R was faster. For me a big surprise was the A45 Mercedes. Also the GT-R was only 5 seconds faster than a Type-R and the drivers were similar at experience level same conditions etc. Overall the Type-R is very good car. I do agree that the Mustang is more capable than me on the track and that it was super fun. But it's clear fact that Type-R is not a car that you underestimate. And to stay on topic the poor performance on the Mustang in the Grand Tour lap times is understandable.

What coarse? Or average speed...
The track always matters, big diff vs something like Circuit of the Americas, etc.


I once made an auto journalist spill his drink (at a black tie affair some 20 years ago), when I suggested that the Nurb would be perfect, if it had about thirty.. 90* turns in it, to mimic American roads. And how such a track would garner more of the car's real performance and went on to explain why...

Champagne is fun...

 

[bnightstar]

What coarse? Or average speed...
The track always matters, big diff vs something like Circuit of the Americas, etc.
Champagne is fun...

It was a really small track where cars like the Type-R and A45 will be much more suited for than the Mustang and the GT-R and as I already said it's not a fair comparison as the guy in the Type-R has way more experience than me on a track. However I still think that if you want to go on track there cheaper and easier cars to drive than a Mustang.

 

[Hack]

Yeah what I don't understand is how this is difficult to believe:

20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:43.8 Honda Civic Type R (FK8) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YSjItQneNM

20,600 m (67,600 ft) 8:07 Ford Mustang GT Performance Pack - couldn't find a video from the lap.

The 'ring is notorious for bad and variable conditions. Those laps aren't driven on the same day and there's no knowing who the drivers were. A good driver can easily be minutes faster on the 'ring. There are so many corners that the few drivers who know the 'ring well have a huge advantage.

I just happen to drive on the same track as a Civic Type-R last weekend here is the result:

http://danaildaskalov.com/RESULTS.png

The Type-R was faster than my Mustang GT with 9 seconds around the track. True It's my first track day SNIP

That guy in the Type R would have been even faster if he would have driven your GT. The time advantage is all due to the driver.

I think typically the Mustang GT will be slightly faster than the Type R around a track, even though the GT has crappy tires on it and the suspension is set up for comfort rather than track times. The Mustang GT is just a superior car for road course work.

 

[w3rkn]

It was a really small track where cars like the Type-R and A45 will be much more suited for than the Mustang and the GT-R and as I already said it's not a fair comparison as the guy in the Type-R has way more experience than me on a track. However I still think that if you want to go on track there cheaper and easier cars to drive than a Mustang.

I always said, it isn't how fast the car is, but how well One drives a car fast.
Thus, how well One knows their own vehicle.

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