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Poor Mustang GT lap on "The Grand Tour"?

bnightstar

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The Lighting Lap was same track, same day, about as close as you can get. So far, you haven't explained how that happened if the Type R is so much better.
The Lighting Lap is PP2 first and it's on the stock Cup2 tyres which are semi slicks and the Type-R is on Continental SportContact 6, 245/30ZR-20 90Y Are you really comparing top of the line race tires with Continenatl SportContact :)

And call that a fair competition ? I don't argue that with few mods (like half a Civic Type-R price of mods) the Mustang will be faster around track. I argue that stock GT PP1 is not faster around a track than Focus RS, Civic Type-R and the rest of this cars.

Also if the S550 platform was so capable how it didn't ever win a GT4 championship ?
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Alej

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I fully agree that the PZero's as all Pirelli tires are totally not suitable for driving not only on track but on street as well this is my 3rd set of tires made by Pirelli and every time the feeling is the same they just sucks. I probably will go with 275/40 square with Michelin PS4S to be fair as I don't want to run spacers etc. Power Pack 3 is also on my list but for track handling will probably go with the Steeda pack+stop the hop pack.
(...)
For what I found, depending on the wheels, there is a lot of leeway without needing spacers. It’s possible to even go 315/35/19 on the rears (unless you meant a strictly square setup?). I’m using LMR.com SVE R 350 replicas which are 19x11 and 19x10 and that can hold a lot of fire. The full tire wheel combo is “budget friendly”, lighter and after a year in of track abuse is still spot on.

(...)

I understand I'm in a Mustang forum and I'm a Mustang GT owner and fanboy to be fair and in such a forum Mustang is faster than anything under the moon and also around the moon and after the moon. But the truth is that Civic Type-R is faster around tracks than a Mustang GT PP1 sure probably the GT has more tuning potential and bigger after market but the Civic Type-R is amazing car.

(...)
Hahah, well, yeah.
But indeed, agreed. I come from a family obsessed with having only Honda cars since my kid days. The Type R is indeed a truly amazing machine. It’s all for the best, it’s only good for everybody that brands receives a bit of pressure from others.

However, fanboy alert, the civic doesn’t worry me... at all. Do the mods, specially tires (fyi, non square feels perfect for me, I would think that keeping 275 on the rear would still have trouble gripping all that HP out of corners... #1 issue with stock pp) and give that civic on your track days a run for its money... Although, after spending that, it would technically be, um, give your own money a run... a ride... while watching civics pass by... you know what I mean.

It is the Camaro. I was floored to the underground watching ZL1 1LE swift by like I was a static obstacle on high speed tracks. That’s a very capable high performance stock car... yes I’m a mustang fan, but I have to accept this, I don't know how much I have to put to just reach similar ranges of performance. If we can buy a GT and do some mods we could technically (and in my case a bit irresponsibly) stretch it to a GT350, maybe R (buy used, wait for a sweet deal, etc)... but then why not a Camaro? Could be the best bang for the buck.
Downbudget-ing for a Civic? Hardly think so.

Guys, don’t flame me.


(...)
Also, if you read some of the comments, one person defending the Type R says that the air density alone could account for 10 seconds per lap difference on the 'Ring, and also mentions other variables.
(...)
This. Honestly 10seconds diff on this track is not as catastrophic as it sounds... it’s like a second difference on a 1minute per lap track, which yes, it’s something but within comfortably fixable zone.

Someone mentioned that no mustang has ever won a GT4 cup though... ouch. Maybe driver related? Are these cups a good measure?
 

bnightstar

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For what I found, depending on the wheels, there is a lot of leeway without needing spacers. It’s possible to even go 315/35/19 on the rears (unless you meant a strictly square setup?). I’m using LMR.com SVE R 350 replicas which are 19x11 and 19x10 and that can hold a lot of fire. The full tire wheel combo is “budget friendly”, lighter and after a year in of track abuse is still spot on.

However, fanboy alert, the civic doesn’t worry me... at all. Do the mods, specially tires (fyi, non square feels perfect for me, I would think that keeping 275 on the rear would still have trouble gripping all that HP out of corners... #1 issue with stock pp)

Someone mentioned that no mustang has ever won a GT4 cup though... ouch. Maybe driver related? Are these cups a good measure?
For Spacers I mean in the front as you need spacers and sometimes camber to fit anything bigger than 275/40 upfront. I want square setup just so I can save money when rotating tires front to back. For the point with putting the power down I hope that the Steeda Stop the Hop package will solve the spinning tires problem combined with MPS4s hopefully will be enough.

My remark for the Mustang GT4 car not winning anything is not entirely true as a Mustang recently won a sprint race 2 in Pirelli GT4 America series in St. Petersburg but overall the Mustang is not dominating the GT4 races as most people here are trying to convince you that is capable track weapon.

I watch motor sports for over 25 years now and for the past 2-3 seasons Mustang's are rarely seen in the GT4 class. There is an Australian company that was running some S550 Mustang's in the endurance races but the results are disappointing to say the least. However this season the GT4 car looks promising and I think more wins will come in the next races.

However for a daily drive occasional track day car the Mustang GT is ton's of fun or at least I'm having ton's of fun with it around the track. But overall The Ground Tour lap time and the other lap times suggest that the car is not exactly the best you can buy with money. However if money are no object we all would have been driving this sexy Porsches around tracks :)
 

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The Lighting Lap is PP2 first and it's on the stock Cup2 tyres which are semi slicks and the Type-R is on Continental SportContact 6, 245/30ZR-20 90Y Are you really comparing top of the line race tires with Continenatl SportContact :)

And call that a fair competition ? I don't argue that with few mods (like half a Civic Type-R price of mods) the Mustang will be faster around track. I argue that stock GT PP1 is not faster around a track than Focus RS, Civic Type-R and the rest of this cars.

Also if the S550 platform was so capable how it didn't ever win a GT4 championship ?
The more you post, the more I doubt whether you even own a Mustang. If you do, you should go with your heart. Sell it and buy a Type R.
 

bnightstar

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The more you post, the more I doubt whether you even own a Mustang. If you do, you should go with your heart. Sell it and buy a Type R.
I do own it but doubt I will sell it for a Type R after all the Mustang is great car just not for the track. I would probably consider the new 2020 HiPo though as it sounds fun. Or keep the Mustang and buy something else for Track/Winter car.
The more you post the more I doubt you ever seen Type R in person.
 

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Arthonon

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The Lighting Lap is PP2 first and it's on the stock Cup2 tyres which are semi slicks and the Type-R is on Continental SportContact 6, 245/30ZR-20 90Y Are you really comparing top of the line race tires with Continenatl SportContact :)

And call that a fair competition ? I don't argue that with few mods (like half a Civic Type-R price of mods) the Mustang will be faster around track. I argue that stock GT PP1 is not faster around a track than Focus RS, Civic Type-R and the rest of this cars.

Also if the S550 platform was so capable how it didn't ever win a GT4 championship ?
OK, just so I'm clear on this, a prototype, modified Type R with better tires is a fair comparison to a stock 2015 Mustang GT on the Nurburgring track, but stock configurations direct from the manufacturers is unfair? I'm pretty sure the "mods" done to the PP2 are not half the price of a Type R.

For the GT4 stuff, I never really looked into it. I know that race cars are highly modified and there are a lot of rules, different teams with different capabilities and budgets, BOP changes, etc., so anything like that could be a factor. Danica Patrick ran in Indycar and NASCAR for years and never won a championship, and she was driving the same basic cars as everyone else, so it's not always the car. Then again, maybe the S550 is not as good as the other cars it ran against, but I can't say with the information I have.
 

bnightstar

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OK, just so I'm clear on this, a prototype, modified Type R with better tires is a fair comparison to a stock 2015 Mustang GT on the Nurburgring track, but stock configurations direct from the manufacturers is unfair? I'm pretty sure the "mods" done to the PP2 are not half the price of a Type R.
Ok but what about that Serres times 3 seconds in favour of a production Type R against a production Mustang GT stock driven by same driver on the same track ? Also Serres is my local track so that time difference actually matter for me.
 

jacknifetoaswan

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Ok, so something to consider about the Civic Type R vs. Mustang GT lap times, is that, while we know that the Mustang GT lap time was set by The American, aka, Mike Skinner, a NASCAR driver that doesn't have stellar results at either Watkins Glen or Sonoma (a couple third place finishes, mostly mid-teens or twenties) in any race series, we don't know who set the Civic Type R lap, as it's on the board at the beginning of the show.

It's pretty clear that Abbie Eaton would have been a lot faster in the Mustang, based on how she wheeled the cars in seasons 2 and 3.

The Civic time could have been set by anyone, to include Captain Slowly, so it's not fair to assess the Civic against the Mustang, in this context. Again, drivers and conditions can change a whole hell of a lot about lap times.

JR
 

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Ok but what about that Serres times 3 seconds in favour of a production Type R against a production Mustang GT stock driven by same driver on the same track ? Also Serres is my local track so that time difference actually matter for me.
You're going in circles again. What was the DA for each run? What were the track conditions for each run? A different day, especially if separated by a long time, can have a significant impact on a lap time, so you have no way of knowing how they would do on that track compared to each other with that kind of separation.

Maybe the Type R would be even faster, maybe the conditions were more favorable for the Mustang. You seem to keep missing that I'm not arguing that the Mustang is faster, I'm saying that the method you're using to determine the faster car is flawed, so you don't really know which is faster based on that.
 

bnightstar

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You're going in circles again. What was the DA for each run? What were the track conditions for each run? A different day, especially if separated by a long time, can have a significant impact on a lap time, so you have no way of knowing how they would do on that track compared to each other with that kind of separation.

Maybe the Type R would be even faster, maybe the conditions were more favorable for the Mustang. You seem to keep missing that I'm not arguing that the Mustang is faster, I'm saying that the method you're using to determine the faster car is flawed, so you don't really know which is faster based on that.
Ok I have a friend with Type-R 2017 what way you suggest to determine which car is faster ? That will make you admit that the Mustang GT PP1 is not a suitable track car ?

I honestly am getting tired of you guys not admitting the truth that this car out of the factory is not a race car.

Also my neighbour have a Focus RS so I will ask him to join on the fun just let me know on a method. I also post you a lap times from same day same track back to back session between me in the Mustang and a Type-R driven by my friend and the difference was 9 seconds. So please tell me what method you will agree with ?

Also saying but the Mustang need aftermarket tires and mods so it can beat a 100 BHP less powerful car around a 2KM track is not exactly screaming Mustang is capable car on the track :D
 

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I do own it but doubt I will sell it for a Type R after all the Mustang is great car just not for the track. I would probably consider the new 2020 HiPo though as it sounds fun. Or keep the Mustang and buy something else for Track/Winter car.
The more you post the more I doubt you ever seen Type R in person.
I've seen some newer Civics with that super ugly wing on them. Are those all Type Rs, or does the wing come on other Civics?

Ok I have a friend with Type-R 2017 what way you suggest to determine which car is faster ? That will make you admit that the Mustang GT PP1 is not a suitable track car ?

I honestly am getting tired of you guys not admitting the truth that this car out of the factory is not a race car.

Also my neighbour have a Focus RS so I will ask him to join on the fun just let me know on a method. I also post you a lap times from same day same track back to back session between me in the Mustang and a Type-R driven by my friend and the difference was 9 seconds. So please tell me what method you will agree with ?

Also saying but the Mustang need aftermarket tires and mods so it can beat a 100 BHP less powerful car around a 2KM track is not exactly screaming Mustang is capable car on the track :D
OK, you keep changing the mark. OF COURSE the Mustang PP1 isn't a race car. NO ONE in this thread has said that. Are you just arguing to argue?

The Civic Type R isn't a race car either. The version of the Civic Type R that set the 'ring time you keep spouting was essentially a race car, though.

A good way to determine which car is faster is to hire a professional driver and have him drive the cars back to back on the same day. Makes sure all the cars are in good condition with fresh tires, brakes are bled, new pads, etc. KIND OF LIKE THE C&D LIGHTNING LAP ALREADY DID.
 

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OK, you keep changing the mark. OF COURSE the Mustang PP1 isn't a race car. NO ONE in this thread has said that. Are you just arguing to argue?

The Civic Type R isn't a race car either. The version of the Civic Type R that set the 'ring time you keep spouting was essentially a race car, though.

A good way to determine which car is faster is to hire a professional driver and have him drive the cars back to back on the same day. Makes sure all the cars are in good condition with fresh tires, brakes are bled, new pads, etc. KIND OF LIKE THE C&D LIGHTNING LAP ALREADY DID.
Thank you, saved me the typing
 

bnightstar

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I've seen some newer Civics with that super ugly wing on them. Are those all Type Rs, or does the wing come on other Civics?
You for real bro ? Most of the Civics have the ugly wing.


OK, you keep changing the mark. OF COURSE the Mustang PP1 isn't a race car. NO ONE in this thread has said that. Are you just arguing to argue?

The Civic Type R isn't a race car either. The version of the Civic Type R that set the 'ring time you keep spouting was essentially a race car, though.

A good way to determine which car is faster is to hire a professional driver and have him drive the cars back to back on the same day. Makes sure all the cars are in good condition with fresh tires, brakes are bled, new pads, etc. KIND OF LIKE THE C&D LIGHTNING LAP ALREADY DID.
And kind of what The Grand Tour did in there tests which is the topic in question.

ALSO THE LIGHTNING LAP is with different tires and different perf packs. Also could it be that the Type-R run in the Morning when the track was cold and the Mustang run in the afternoon ? Do we know track temp, air temp and other conditions for both laps ? Do we know if the Driver was taken a poop that day before or after each run ?
 

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I honestly am getting tired of you guys not admitting the truth that this car out of the factory is not a race car.
And honestly, we're getting tired of you being obtuse.

The point is that you cannot, ever, compare lap times in the manner that Top Gear or The Grand Tour does. TG had multiple STIGs, and TGT used both Mike Skinner and Abbie Eaton to set lap times. The times are done in completely varying conditions, and unless they're run back-to-back-to-back-to-back, and repeated, you must take them with a grain of salt. No, the Mustang GT/PP is not a track car. Yes, the Civic Type R is a track-focused car. Would they have more similar lap times using the same time compound, same driver, and same conditions? Probably. Do we have a head-to-head comparison of each, with repeatable results? No. They're both good cars, they both excel at what they're designed to do. I do think the Mustang was sandbagged around that track, and given that the previous Mustang GT with Track Pack was faster than the previous M3, I think the Mustang should have been a lot faster than what was shown. Can I prove that? Absolutely not. I'm not Mike Skinner, nor am I Andy Wilman.

JR
 
 




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