Guess what? Motortrend favors the Camaro again

[Norm Peterson]

I do consider replacing all those parts extensive. Certainly isn’t cheap.

Personally, I consider myself a corner carver. It has been some time since my last track day, but I had my old STI on fun curvy roads around VA and WV regularly. This Mustang meets the mark 100% for me. However, there is always room for improvement, so I am already looking into cheap upgrades like FP GT350 springs.

Other than mounting the tires to the wheels, everything on my previosly-posted list is bolt-on in nature and easily driveway-do-able in an hour or two per task. With a little planning, you wouldn't be trying to get it all done in the same day. Shouldn't, actually.

I will tell you that I was flat-out unhappy from the start with the OE tires (BFG KDWS, no longer in production), for their poor wet weather performance much more so than for the fact that the size (235/50-18) is clearly on the small side given the car weight. Hence, much of that part of the expense was really fixing where Ford came up short even for a street driver, with the performance improvement being only a little more than incidental. FWIW, it's always been my opinion that the 2008 GT should have at least been available with GT500-size rims (18x9.5) and 255/45 summer performance tires all around, even before sitting down with the salesman to put my order together.

I suppose I should have mentioned brakes, but it was only the change to track-capable pads and some DIY cooling ducts that amounted to an upgrade. Of course, pads can become consumables even more so than tires once you get out there on the track, which is something that you either accept or something that keeps you out of the activity.


You perhaps noticed that springs were not included in the earlier list. Not having swapped them out hadn't been holding up my progress as a driver out on the track, so it's only been recently that I finally did go to something a bit firmer.

For a dual-purpose car shocks, struts, and efforts at improving rear wheel location would be better places to concentrate on first. Even more so for a street-driven-only car, where composure should be counting for more than a few tens of lbs less lateral load transfer (I'm not going to get into a discussion involving appearance preferences).


Norm

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[Norm Peterson]

You're argument that this doesn't matter is foolish, as you are trying to insert your opinion above the opinion of everyone else that actually makes a decision to purchase these vehicles.

It's you're opinion that the camaro is better, but the sales results say otherwise.

To me, it's no better to insist he fall in lock-step with the opinions of the majority of ponycar buyers just because they're in the majority. Worse maybe, since allowing that to happen amounts to letting your preferences be run roughshod over.

As far as I know, we all buy one car at a time. If we're smart and have a lick of independence in our spirit, we buy it based on what we expect to get out of it rather than blindly lining ourselves up with whatever mass preferences exist.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

Even corner carvers aren’t going to give up thinks like looks and ergonomics just to have their street car be slightly faster on the track.

Don't be too sure, or at least don't be so inclusive.

What a car looks like is actually a good ways down on my list of priorities. I don't see much of it when I'm in the car driving it, and I don't see any of it when I'm most anywhere else. I actually bought one of my previous cars after specifically criticizing the general proportions from the windshield forward. Kept that car 33 years.

The only appearance detail I can think of that I absolutely dislike - as in sufficient to take the whole car off any short list of potential purchases all by itself - is the Lexus grille. Fortunately for ponycar buyers in general none of these cars has yet attempted to imitate that shape.


Norm

 

[w3rkn]

Again, you can "tweak" anything to the Nth.

Can we just acknowledge that the s550 Chassis & Suspension are far superior in every regards, to that of the old 5th gen..? Drive a base 2014 GT and a base 2015 GT and they are wholly two different cars. The S550 doesn't feel like a Mustang, it feels like a BMW.

And not surprising, because both companies are at their peak in mass-engineering. And Ford is beating BMW at their own game here, IMO.

What most overlook, is how good the s550's new suspension is.. and how much better it gets with Magneride around a track.




Honestly, unless you are going with high-end 3-way/4-way suspension like ast motons, etc... then magneride is the best all-around thing to have.


ergo: Both the Camaro and Mustang should be tested side-by-side with magneride, sitting on the meatiest tires for an all out track fest. Or not at all.

Otherwise, all you'll get is conjecture and endless banter found throughout this thread.

 

[Norm Peterson]

The S550 doesn't feel like a Mustang, it feels like a BMW.

And not surprising, because both companies are at their peak in mass-engineering. And Ford is beating BMW at their own game here, IMO.

Key word boldfaced for emphasis. I wonder how much of Ford's apparent gain vs BMW has come from BMW softening the bulk of its lineup more toward luxury.


I wouldn't care if both the Mustang and the Camaro had Magneride or neither did so long as they were both comparably equipped in this respect. Same goes for the wheel & tire packages; otherwise that is a direct hint that one mfr isn't taking the performance enthusiast as seriously as the other one is, and might be holding back in other performance-related areas as well. All to better suit the more mass-market customer and his lesser demands . . .


Norm

 

[16 GT MM/Auto]

... Even corner carvers aren’t going to give up thinks like looks and ergonomics just to have their street car be slightly faster on the track ...

Bingo.

The pony car public at large will not buy a vehicle they don't like looking at, just because it's a few tenths quicker in acceleration or a couple of seconds quicker over a long road course.

Sales numbers have proven this out.

I would like to test drive the 18 GT out of extreme curiosity. Keep driving by the dealer to look at them ...

I keep perusing new arrivals as well, but my car (Premium/auto/20" wheels) has been trouble free and to duplicate it with an '18 would easily cost 2k more.

I would have to drop down to a base model/auto, and I don't know if I can live without the better sound, larger entertainment screen (base is so darn small), and toggles ("snow/wet" is important).

 

[Norm Peterson]

Bingo.

The pony car public at large will not buy a vehicle they don't like looking at, just because it's a few tenths quicker in acceleration or a couple of seconds quicker over a long road course.

Sales numbers have proven this out.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the purpose of any of the H2H articles ever written and are utterly irrelevant to any discussion of H2H testing.

Focusing on sales numbers in this thread is just as far off-topic as filling up a topic about comparative ponycar sales with comments about which car has the more track-ready suspension & handling would be.


Norm

 

[millhouse]

To me, it's no better to insist he fall in lock-step with the opinions of the majority of ponycar buyers just because they're in the majority. Worse maybe, since allowing that to happen amounts to letting your preferences be run roughshod over.

As far as I know, we all buy one car at a time. If we're smart and have a lick of independence in our spirit, we buy it based on what we expect to get out of it rather than blindly lining ourselves up with whatever mass preferences exist.


Norm

I think you're misunderstanding my points Norm. No one is insisting his views have to align with everyone else. His argument however is that his view on what the better car is trumps the opinion of what the sheer sales advantage tells us what the majority to believe the better car is (long sentence there, sorry). For some reason people seem to (wrongly) infer that better means faster or has more options. For anyone buying these cars, the term "better" means the car fit's their needs better than the competition. Weather from looks, pricing or even having all season tires come on their vehicle instead of summer treads....better has a variety of different sources.

So yes, in the end a much higher sales volume is a good indicator on exactly what the majority think the better car is.

 

[jake_zx2]

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the purpose of any of the H2H articles ever written and are utterly irrelevant to any discussion of H2H testing.

Focusing on sales numbers in this thread is just as far off-topic as filling up a topic about comparative ponycar sales with comments about which car has the more track-ready suspension & handling would be.


Norm

However, I believe this specific conversation started simply because someone said the Camaro was not only the higher performing car, but the better car, to which we responded that simply isn’t true. Sales numbers will back up the fact that that claim is absurd. A car can be better performing and still be a worse car overall, and I think that’s the point trying to be made

 

[tyler2k]

if you look at each car without wanting to buy either, based on options and performance per price the camaro is better. the car motor trend tested was a few grand more then the camaro which came with more options and performance therefore looking at each car without buying interest the camaro is better

 

[millhouse]

if you look at each car without wanting to buy either, based on options and performance per price the camaro is better. the car motor trend tested was a few grand more then the camaro which came with more options and performance therefore looking at each car without buying interest the camaro is better

Again, you are confusing what is "better" to you compared to what is better to everyone else.

Do you want to fit 2 full sized sets of golf clubs in the trunk? Then the mustang is better.

Do you want to be able to drive the car off the lot in the snow? Then the mustang is better.

Do you want the lowest priced v8 option? Then the mustang is better.

Do you want much better visibility? Then the mustang is better.

Do you want more rear seat room? Then the mustang is better.

Do you like to be able to rest your arm on the window sill while driving? Then the mustang is better.

And then after all of these items comes other personal preferences such as looks, engine type, driving position etc.

Again, you are completely ignorant in regards to what exactly "better" means for everyone else.

 

[tyler2k]

Again, you are confusing what is "better" to you compared to what is better to everyone else.

Do you want to fit 2 full sized sets of golf clubs in the trunk? Then the mustang is better.

Do you want to be able to drive the car off the lot in the snow? Then the mustang is better.

Do you want the lowest priced v8 option? Then the mustang is better.

Do you want much better visibility? Then the mustang is better.

Do you want more rear seat room? Then the mustang is better.

Do you like to be able to rest your arm on the window sill while driving? Then the mustang is better.

And then after all of these items comes other personal preferences such as looks, engine type, driving position etc.

Again, you are completely ignorant in regards to what exactly "better" means for everyone else.

and again your looking as a buyer all your points are if your looking you by a car. I said comparing the cars with no buying interest looking at what you get for your money the camaro wins

 

[16 GT MM/Auto]

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the purpose of any of the H2H articles ever written and are utterly irrelevant to any discussion of H2H testing ...

Which has absolutely nothing to do with negating sales as a result of an H2H episode.

The purpose of any info relating to these cars are utterly relevant to any discussion, anytime, anywhere. H2H testing or not.

You need to get your act together, until then, congrats on being only the 4th irrational person I've had to put on my ignore list.

I think you're misunderstanding my points Norm ...

"Misunderstanding" is only scratching the surface ...

 

[jake_zx2]

and again your looking as a buyer all your points are if your looking you by a car. I said comparing the cars with no buying interest looking at what you get for your money the camaro wins

Oh, so you want to look at it as a completely uninterested, uneducated person who just wants to say “well this one has 10 speakers and this one has 9”. Glad we got that out of the way

 

[02gtnh]

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the purpose of any of the H2H articles ever written and are utterly irrelevant to any discussion of H2H testing.

Focusing on sales numbers in this thread is just as far off-topic as filling up a topic about comparative ponycar sales with comments about which car has the more track-ready suspension & handling would be.


Norm

There’s just two ways to look at it. Mustang guys can hang there hat that there car sells better and is more of a DD and practical car, while Camaro guys can hang there hat that there car is a better performance car. So it depends on what you would rather brag about to your buddies.:cheers:

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