Guess what? Motortrend favors the Camaro again

[Chameleon]

Stupid comparison on a stupid track. They should have compared the SS to the PP1 or the 1LE to a PP2 or GT350

Agreed.

Sponsored

 

[Norm Peterson]

Stupid comparison on a stupid track. They should have compared the SS to the PP1 or the 1LE to a PP2 or GT350

Agreed with respect to the cars compared. If as claimed they couldn't get a PP2, they should have dropped back to a non-1LE SS.

But what's stupid about the track or the decision to use it? Serious question even though it's extremely unlikely that I'll ever drive on that track.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

Norm, as an ex S197 owner, I have to say you didn’t really care about road courses for your purchase. That platform requires significant investment to handle even close to a level that is worthy of a track day. So something else drives your decisions as well.

Sure. For starters, price and a great unwillingness to pay any P-car or B-car tax.

But I really didn't say track day attributes were the only thing either. Just that they're up there at or very near the top for me because those attributes are what I'm looking for even when most of my driving is below 5/10ths. Think raw material. Since 1971 I've never bought a car that didn't fall at least close the top of the pack with respect to the various cornering-oriented measures, nor do I ever intend to no matter what else such a car might feature.

Good raw material is fine. I expect to put some time, money, and effort into it. Guess I've got a few misdirected hotrod genes . . .

Keep in mind the 2007-ish time frame. Among the influences, Sam Strano had jumped ship from the Camaro over to the S197 in SCCA's F-Stock, which was on its way to becoming a Ford playground (the "aka Ford Stock" joke being only a slight exaggeration). I know Sam, seen him drive both Camaros and Mustangs, and respect his judgment even if I usually take a different approach to evaluating situations/finding remedies.

FWIW it doesn't seem to take all that much effort to put together a decent track day capable S197 unless just wheels, tires, shocks, struts, sta-bars, spherical/poly rear LCAs, and a performance alignment meets your definition of "extensive". It's not the fastest car in any given session, but holds its own out there so it's/I'm not a rolling chicane either.

But then again, maybe you will consider that much to have been extensive, given that it was enough modification for intermediate-HPDE-level me to run in the same second as a couple of name brand drivers involved with a different 2009 magazine comparison, driving supposedly showroom stock cars on one of my home track's courses. Automobile, September 2009 if you're curious.

I really don’t get all the disappointment here. Ford delivered a car with performance close to M4 level. So what if it can’t beat a slightly more expensive Camaro. I don’t see that as Ford missing the mark. It is more of a thumbs up to Chevy for going above and beyond everyone else (including BMW). Go Murica!

This much I absolutely agree with, though I do wish that Ford had provided a PP2. Like I've always said, PP1 tuning is still much more mainstream than performance in its intent than Chevy's 1LE ever was, and with that in mind the mark that Ford did hit with it wasn't on the corner-carver's target.


Norm

 

[bootlegger]

FWIW it doesn't seem to take all that much effort to put together a decent track day capable S197 unless just wheels, tires, shocks, struts, sta-bars, spherical/poly rear LCAs, and a performance alignment meets your definition of "extensive". It's not the fastest car in any given session, but holds its own out there so it's/I'm not a rolling chicane either.

But then again, maybe you will consider that much to have been extensive, given that it was enough modification for intermediate-HPDE-level me to run in the same second as a couple of name brand drivers involved with a different 2009 magazine comparison, driving supposedly showroom stock cars on one of my home track's courses. Automobile, September 2009 if you're curious.



This much I absolutely agree with, though I do wish that Ford had provided a PP2. Like I've always said, PP1 tuning is still much more mainstream than performance in its intent than Chevy's 1LE ever was, and with that in mind the mark that Ford did hit with it wasn't on the corner-carver's target.


Norm

I do consider replacing all those parts extensive. Certainly isn’t cheap.

Personally, I consider myself a corner carver. It has been some time since my last track day, but I had my old STI on fun curvy roads around VA and WV regularly. This Mustang meets the mark 100% for me. However, there is always room for improvement, so I am already looking into cheap upgrades like FP GT350 springs.

 

[w3rkn]

"The Mustang PP2 is the ultimate American sports car for the budget minded..!"
-my13wordreview.

 

[ClevelandV8]

Stupid comparison on a stupid track. They should have compared the SS to the PP1 or the 1LE to a PP2 or GT350

Fair comparison would be entry level base Camaro (1SS) to entry level base GT (non-performance pack).

 

[wjones14]

Norm, as an ex S197 owner, I have to say you didn’t really care about road courses for your purchase. That platform requires significant investment to handle even close to a level that is worthy of a track day. So something else drives your decisions as well.

I disagree with this. I learned how to do track days on a bone stock S197, and had the time of my life doing it. Each time out I improved, got more relaxed, and had more fun. After 10 years I sold the Mustang and got an M235i, which I do get faster lap times with. I attribute a lot of that to the track experience I got with the Mustang, though the BMW is the better track car.

Every track day I've ever been to has a wide variety of cars, and a lot of them are not as capable as an S197. They don't hand out trophies at HPDE track days, so bring whatever you want and have fun. Someone let me do a bunch of laps at Palmer Motorsports in an old BMW 318i (it was a $500 car used in the 24 hours of Lemons series), and I learned that there is a lot of truth in the saying "it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow."

Bottom line, if I had an S550 and got passed by a 1LE during a track day session, there's no way that would diminish the fun I was having out there on the track.

 

[tyler2k]

I'm hoping that the January sales numbers have lessened your curiosity. Seems that it wasn't just about blowout sales to move the 17s off of lots. Must be something else...

yea it fits into to peoples lives better then a camaro, which in no way shape or form makes it a better car it makes it a Joe livable car. guess you think a Camry is a better car then the mustang since it outsells the mustang. also how much of those sales dont go to an actual consumer but a rental company. arguing that more sales makes a better car is grasping at straws. guess a mustangs a better car then ford gt since it sells more right, no its not, it's more expensive just line the camaro is, and it's less livable just like the camaro

 

[millhouse]

yea it fits into to peoples lives better then a camaro, which in no way shape or form makes it a better car it makes it a Joe livable car. guess you think a Camry is a better car then the mustang since it outsells the mustang. also how much of those sales dont go to an actual consumer but a rental company. arguing that more sales makes a better car is grasping at straws. guess a mustangs a better car then ford gt since it sells more right, no its not, it's more expensive just line the camaro is, and it's less livable just like the camaro

Any way you cut it, the mustang is the more desirable car plain and simple. The camaro has yet to loose the mullet stigma and suffers from it's absurdly high belt line and horrid visibility.

So for a majority, yes...the mustang is the better car for what the market segment demands. Does it have as many coolers or HUD? Nope, but 99% of people buying these cars don't need it and aren't looking for a car that has those options.

And for the record, when you start trying to compare cars across market segments it makes you come off as an idiot....unless you truly believe that people cross shop camrys, mustangs and Ford GTs.

 

[tyler2k]

Any way you cut it, the mustang is the more desirable car plain and simple. The camaro has yet to loose the mullet stigma and suffers from it's absurdly high belt line and horrid visibility.

So for a majority, yes...the mustang is the better car for what the market segment demands. Does it have as many coolers or HUD? Nope, but 99% of people buying these cars don't need it and aren't looking for a car that has those options.

And for the record, when you start trying to compare cars across market segments it makes you come off as an idiot....unless you truly believe that people cross shop camrys, mustangs and Ford GTs.

and saying the mustang is a better car based off sales, alot of which dont go to a private consumer, makes you sound like an idiot. more desirable doesnt male it a better car , it just means it fits people's lives better

 

[millhouse]

and saying the mustang is a better car based off sales, alot of which dont go to a private consumer, makes you sound like an idiot. more desirable doesnt male it a better car , it just means it fits people's lives better

And because it fits peoples lives better, it makes it the car better for the majority. Seriously, why are you even trying to argue this.

A car being faster does not make it better in the eyes of the buying public....only for the brand loyal fools. The camaro and mustang are in the exact same market segment...and the mustang continues to destroy the camaro in sales months in and out. This means the buying public prefers the mustang...and it is a BETTER CAR for their needs.

You're argument that this doesn't matter is foolish, as you are trying to insert your opinion above the opinion of everyone else that actually makes a decision to purchase these vehicles.

It's you're opinion that the camaro is better, but the sales results say otherwise.

 

[thill444]

and saying the mustang is a better car based off sales, alot of which dont go to a private consumer, makes you sound like an idiot. more desirable doesnt male it a better car , it just means it fits people's lives better

The Camaro is the better performance car and the Mustang is the better daily driver. I doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. I drove an 18 PP1 back to back with an 18 2SS. There are a lot of design compromises the Camaro has the Ford simply doesn't.

This is why the Mustang is the better seller, and even with a price increase will likely remain the better seller this generation.

 

[bootlegger]

I disagree with this. I learned how to do track days on a bone stock S197, and had the time of my life doing it. Each time out I improved, got more relaxed, and had more fun. After 10 years I sold the Mustang and got an M235i, which I do get faster lap times with. I attribute a lot of that to the track experience I got with the Mustang, though the BMW is the better track car.

Every track day I've ever been to has a wide variety of cars, and a lot of them are not as capable as an S197. They don't hand out trophies at HPDE track days, so bring whatever you want and have fun. Someone let me do a bunch of laps at Palmer Motorsports in an old BMW 318i (it was a $500 car used in the 24 hours of Lemons series), and I learned that there is a lot of truth in the saying "it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow."

Bottom line, if I had an S550 and got passed by a 1LE during a track day session, there's no way that would diminish the fun I was having out there on the track.

I am certainly not saying you can’t track an S197. I am pointing out that a corner carver would never purchase one for its capabilities on a road course. I have run autox in a Sentra and a Jetta. But these cars weren’t selected for there superior handling. While I may not have been clear enough on my point, you seem to agree with it. Even though we all love performance, we choose the cars that fit our needs as a whole package in the end. Even corner carvers aren’t going to give up thinks like looks and ergonomics just to have their street car be slightly faster on the track. I would rather spend a couple grand and have a car that is quicker on the track and easy to live with.

 

[activeGT]

I would like to test drive the 18 GT out of extreme curiosity. Keep driving by the dealer to look at them.

I know my 15 GT was no comparison to my 16 SS in handling and performance and was excited when I saw the HP increase. They just needed to tighten the suspension up.

 

[tyler2k]

The Camaro is the better performance car and the Mustang is the better daily driver. I doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. I drove an 18 PP1 back to back with an 18 2SS. There are a lot of design compromises the Camaro has the Ford simply doesn't.

This is why the Mustang is the better seller, and even with a price increase will likely remain the better seller this generation.

that's exactly what iv been saying, and yet again does not make it a better built car its more practical for everyday life thats it. what you get for your dollar the camaro offers more. I also find it comical when either brand loyalist talks about how the others interior is cheap, i think the material used in both is nothing to write home about. sorry but if you look at what both these cars offer, without an interest in buying one just comparing, the camaro offers more for what you pay

Sponsored