Guess what? Motortrend favors the Camaro again

[HaleFire]

So you paid $20K more for a GT350 because performance doesn't matter.

Mmm, I don't recall saying that performance did not matter. I am NOT denying that there is a certain segment of buyer that will spend their money on the car which produces the best lap times. They are not wrong for that decision, and I am not casting judgement in that choice nor how they choose to use that performance. I'm merely saying that for the vast majority of buyers, it is only one variable in their decision.

A Grand Sport is a similar price to the GT350 and to my knowledge is faster around a track. Did I, and everyone else buy wrong, then? I don't think so because performance was not the only criteria for me. Similarly, people will be buying the Mustang despite the fact that some magazine showed an 'equivalent' Camaro is a couple seconds faster around some track. I know I would.

:cheers:

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[HaleFire]

I guess a corner-carver's attitude is something you have to have before you can understand it. But is it really any different than being focused on straightline acceleration stats? Or feature content or appearance, for that matter.

I don't buy cars all that often - our overall purchase cycle currently stands at just under 6.5 years since 1971. But for every one of those cars, going back over 45 years, the cornering and handling stats and related subjectives were up there at or very near the top of the car class we were looking into, and were among the very top reasons for the choice made.

It's only been recently that lap times have been available as yet another set of data points.



But how fast I'm able to go around a track is still somewhat dependent on what the car is capable of, and the same thing applies to most anybody else. If I'm two seconds slower than Reviewer A in a Mustang, chances are I'm going to be about two seconds slower in a Camaro than Reviewer A is in that same Camaro, assuming the same track. Actually, I have a pretty good baseline for my home track for the car I do have. No reason to expect it to be much different if I was to get a S550, not after some track time anyway.



It's not just about speed and lap times. Or g's and slalom times. Composure while doing it matters, too, and that translates all the way down to brisk street driving if you're paying enough attention. If you let yourself get unhappy when the performance of your current ride is bumped down, you might as well admit to being more of a fanboy than a corner-carver and be done with it.


Norm

I think a good case in point is the age-old manual vs auto (or DCT) transmissions debate. From an objective standpoint, it's fairly easy to show the manual is at a performance disadvantage compared to these modern automatics in various scenarios (I'm not making a universal claim here, at least not yet). Regardless, even some of the most hardcore performance enthusiasts will draw the line and decide that no matter the performance differential, they prefer the manual. I'm one of them, and I wager you are too because the manual is more involving and therefore, more fun.

It doesn't mean that I don't value performance, it simply means that there exists some subjective measures that can outweigh performance differential. Hence why I say that boiling a car down to performance stats and evaluating on that criteria alone, is reductionist. The amount of people that prioritize those metrics to the exclusion of all else are quite rare, I think.

 

[jake_zx2]

I personally consider myself to be a "Corner carver", as I frequent the track (about as often as I can) and don't daily drive my car. That being said, I personally find the best value in the car I can enjoy the most all around. Enjoyment comes from several different areas; not only being able to drive it fast, but having fun while driving, enjoying looking at it, being comfortable in it, etc. all play into the decision. When spending this kind of money on what is essentially a weekend car, you want to be able to get the most out of that money. That's not only backed by small disparities in lap times or small features that one car may have over the other, but backed by HOW MUCH of the car you can enjoy. For me, I would really only enjoy the performance of the Camaro. Driveability (Comparing SS 1LE to GT350, since PP2 has mostly GT350 suspension and will likely have similar magride, steering, and ABS tuning) really isn't all that different between the 2, lap times will be negligible, but the mustang has a much more roomy and comfortable interior, better visibility, more cargo area, a more enjoyable engine, and looks 10x better. That, to me, sounds like a better use of $50k

 

[Chad11491]

gotta be honest, if i was looking for a primarily weekend, track car that could still be a usable daily, i'd get the Camaro before any Mustang, PP2 or GT350. But as a daily, I'm really, really happy with my plain jane GT PP Premium. It's comfy, with my suspension mods it carves corners almost as well as my BRZ did up in the mountains, it sounds great, it's fast as hell, and more power than I can use responsibly in the city anyway. It looks great, it rides great, It's comfy, I can fit me and my fiancee's luggage to go on trips in the trunk with room to spare. One thing that isn't really a consideration until you've experienced it, the clubs are awesome. The Camaro groups in my local area....aren't what i'd like to be in... The local mustang group is full of great guys and really makes the car more enjoyable (to me).

It makes sense a mag would pick the higher performing car. A 1LE will best a PP1, and probably a PP2, so they will logically pick it.

 

[Norm Peterson]

It doesn't mean that I don't value performance, it simply means that there exists some subjective measures that can outweigh performance differential. Hence why I say that boiling a car down to performance stats and evaluating on that criteria alone, is reductionist. The amount of people that prioritize those metrics to the exclusion of all else are quite rare, I think.

Point taken. Though I do think I exclude more than most, and MT's H2H articles zero in on what I do care about - road course capability and closely related subjectives - better than the run-of-the-mill magazine reviews do.

If the H2H articles ever morphed back toward the standard review they'd be a waste of print.


Norm

 

[16 GT MM/Auto]

Similar to what we're seeing today, the LS1 powered 4th gen Camaro SS had an advantage in handling/acceleration over the Mustang ... and it was cancelled.

Mustang beating Camaro in sales 80% of the time since they've been competing is proof that, ultimately, the buying public doesn't care about lap times.

It's the overall package that sells.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Mustang beating Camaro in sales 80% of the time since they've been competing is proof that, ultimately, the buying public doesn't care about lap times.

It's the overall package that sells.

Why would any number of sales to people who don't care about lap times and things related to lap times matter to those who do care about such things?

MT's H2H series is not about sales races, nor are they intended to address what the average commuter wants in his DD.


Norm

 

[16 GT MM/Auto]

Why would any number of sales to people who don't care about lap times and things related to lap times matter to those who do care about such things?

MT's H2H series is not about sales races, nor are they intended to address what the average commuter wants in his DD.


Norm

Why would any number of lap times and things related to lap times matter to those who don't care abut such things?

MT's H2H is about numbers, and don't address the possible cancellation of a vehicle due to poor sales/lack of interest in his DD.

 

[FastCarFanBoy]

Why would any number of sales to people who don't care about lap times and things related to lap times matter to those who do care about such things?

MT's H2H series is not about sales races, nor are they intended to address what the average commuter wants in his DD.


Norm

directly it wouldn't matter , but indirectly if those people who dont put emphasis on performance stop buying a certain vehicle at some point it may stop making financial sense for the manufacturer to continiue producing that model.

Now the individual buyer who puts performance above all else will say...tough luck and find a offering from another manufacturer to purchase, but the company that was forced to cease production will know they made a design mistake and most likely take a financial loss.

would you have bought your '08GT if there was a '08 SS 1LE available?

 

[Dudie7]

it does, it says it was the cheaper more comfortable option. with the price going up so much I'm curious to see if it affects sales

I'm hoping that the January sales numbers have lessened your curiosity. Seems that it wasn't just about blowout sales to move the 17s off of lots. Must be something else...

 

[Norm Peterson]

Why would any number of lap times and things related to lap times matter to those who don't care abut such things?

So why would such people even bother to read articles centered around lap times and track performance? Let alone drag anything not related to track performance into a discussion about . . . let me make sure I've got this right . . . track performance.

There are topics in MT that I flip right past because they are of zero interest to me. Not even worth the time to skim through.

MT's H2H is about numbers, and don't address the possible cancellation of a vehicle due to poor sales/lack of interest in his DD.

Even more remote from this H2H comparison. I get that people here generally aren't happy about the way this H2H turned out, but using the specter of cancellation as a safety net for disappointment is really reaching for the little straws.


(Me, instead of whining/deflecting/making excuses, I might just consider borrowing an idea or two from the other guys to put things on a more even keel. Wouldn't be the first time; for starters my current track day wheel and tire setup was at least influenced by the 5th gen 1LE rear setup, and one-ups that car's front setup.)


Norm

 

[Arthonon]

I think a person should buy whatever car they want for whatever reason they want, whether it be looks, track performance, daily-drive-ability, etc. Rarely is one car clearly the better choice over another for every person.

What I see a lot in these discussions seems to be an all-or-nothing attitude about the results of one comparison. From some in the Camaro camp it seems to be "The Mustang lost this H2H, so it's not good performance car!" In reality, being beaten by the Camaro doesn't mean it's a *bad* car, or a *bad performance car*, it's just not as good on a track as the 1LE Camaro. It still hangs with M4s, which I'd say puts it in pretty good company as a performance car.

MT didn't even say all Mustangs were bad, only that Ford didn't apply what they had to the GT, and that was one of the more frustrating aspects of it - in their opinion, the Mustang could have done better if Ford had just put in things that they have put in other Mustangs. I think the bigger problem for the Mustang is not what you get, but what you get for your money - the 1LE seems to have more in it for the same price as a PP2 (coolers, HUD, 4-wheel Brembos, etc.). I know that most people don't need all that, but it seems like you're paying for things you're not getting when you compare pricing.

 

[bootlegger]

Point taken. Though I do think I exclude more than most, and MT's H2H articles zero in on what I do care about - road course capability and closely related subjectives - better than the run-of-the-mill magazine reviews do.

If the H2H articles ever morphed back toward the standard review they'd be a waste of print.


Norm

Norm, as an ex S197 owner, I have to say you didn’t really care about road courses for your purchase. That platform requires significant investment to handle even close to a level that is worthy of a track day. So something else drives your decisions as well.
I really don’t get all the disappointment here. Ford delivered a car with performance close to M4 level. So what if it can’t beat a slightly more expensive Camaro. I don’t see that as Ford missing the mark. It is more of a thumbs up to Chevy for going above and beyond everyone else (including BMW). Go Murica!

 

[SBGT]

We all know which one is the better car, Mustang of course!
I could care less what a magazine has to say.

 

[Stuntman]

Stupid comparison on a stupid track. They should have compared the SS to the PP1 or the 1LE to a PP2 or GT350

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