Guess what? Motortrend favors the Camaro again

[02gtnh]

The Edmunds comparison was a non PP1 car on Pirellis and what looked like the black package wheels. The reason it was similar price, was due to the premium and 401A. Once again, not even close to an even comparison with the 1SS as far as performance goes. Track people aren't cross shopping with luxury items.

The Camaro was a 2ss, so it was also fully loaded.:cheers:

Sponsored

 

[bootlegger]

The Camaro was a 2ss, so it was also fully loaded.:cheers:

Make that GT a manual and a non 401A, then it is $3k less than the 2SS. Either way, they picked a car with all luxury and none of the extra performance goodies to go against a car loaded for the track. I would still love to see a base 1SS vs a basic PP1.

 

[thill444]

Make that GT a manual and a non 401A, then it is $3k less than the 2SS. Either way, they picked a car with all luxury and none of the extra performance goodies to go against a car loaded for the track. I would still love to see a base 1SS vs a basic PP1.

I agree base 1SS vs base PP1 and a 1LE vs a PP2. If GM releases a Camaro SS that has all season tires then test that against a regular GT.

It's how people will buy these cars most likey. Someone that wants all seasons and a daily commute car is not going to buy a 1LE. Just like someone shopping a base or Premium GT with all seasons is not going to buy a PP2.

Not everyone wants or has the ability to store two sets of tires, and in most areas of the country and you cannot really drive the PP1, and espeically PP2, year round. Same with Camaro SS/1LE. They are high performance summer tires only and not recommended to be used under 45 degrees.

 

[Hack]

And a Camry smokes them both in sales, so the Camry must be the better car, right?

The Mustang used to have a substantial price advantage, which I think drove a lot of it's popularity. Something they seem to have "fixed" for 2018.

Camry is great for those who want something they perceive as safe and reliable. It's not the same market as Mustang and Camaro though. I have never considered purchasing a Camry myself. Most Camry buyers aren't interested in buying a 2 seat sporty vehicle, either. Many of them even think that American cars have poor quality. So obviously comparing sales between Camry and Mustang is more a comparison in the size of the markets rather than a comparison of the cars.

I agree that Ford's former price advantage was a significant factor. At least I know at one time it was for me. Ford must feel that the Mustang's current design is superior enough to the competition that they will still get sales even after increasing the price.

 

[thehunterooo]

We will see in a few days on sales. No more excuses on the superior car being outsold by several thousand units.

 

[EcoVert]

And a Camry smokes them both in sales, so the Camry must be the better car, right?

But Mustang is a super car it smokes camry in the 1/4 mile and on the road course. Plus with Mustang selling fewer car than camry its more exclusive

 

[Norm Peterson]

Not everyone wants or has the ability to store two sets of tires, and in most areas of the country and you cannot really drive the PP1, and espeically PP2, year round. Same with Camaro SS/1LE. They are high performance summer tires only and not recommended to be used under 45 degrees.

If you've got the will to drive a 1LE or a PP2 on a daily basis (not all that much of a burden), you can find a way to store that extra set of wheels & tires. Apartment dwellers perhaps excepted.


As unimpressive as the OE choices in all-season tires seem to have been in the wet, you might as well get summer performance tires for the warm weather and save the OE tires for the colder stuff.


Norm

 

[thehunterooo]

But Mustang is a super car it smokes camry in the 1/4 mile and on the road course. Plus with Mustang selling fewer car than camry its more exclusive

S U P E R C A R

 

[EcoVert]

S U P E R C A R

I stand corrected sir

 

[HaleFire]

IMO - Boiling down the quality of a car to a track time is an exercise in reductionism and largely misses the point of owning one. Only a tiny minority of buyers will truly find it relevant - if you are actually one of those people then all the power to you. I think as a group, we overestimate the number of folks that fall into that category.

I get that it's fun to have friendly banter regarding who's car is faster around a track, but is it really that important? The average buyer, including a sizeable portion of those on this board, are not able to consistently replicate the track times set by professionals, and/or they are not financially capable of tracking the car on a regular basis. Most PP cars will never even see a track. Ultimately, the only lap time that should matter is how fast YOU go around it, not how fast some reviewer did.

The imperative should be in buying something that's fun to drive and enjoy it - if that so happens to be the fastest car at the time, then so be it. Unless you are the aforementioned exception to the norm, how fast your car goes around some track is merely material for friendly pissing matches with your buddies. Stop giving so much worry to who has the faster car. Because if that is your only criteria, realize that you are never more than a couple years away from being unhappy when a competitor releases something faster.

 

[Grintch]

IMO - Boiling down the quality of a car to a track time is an exercise in reductionism and largely misses the point of owning one. Only a tiny minority of buyers will truly find it relevant - if you are actually one of those people then all the power to you. I think as a group, we overestimate the number of folks that fall into that category.

I get that it's fun to have friendly banter regarding who's car is faster around a track, but is it really that important? The average buyer, including a sizeable portion of those on this board, are not able to consistently replicate the track times set by professionals, and/or they are not financially capable of tracking the car on a regular basis. Most PP cars will never even see a track. Ultimately, the only lap time that should matter is how fast YOU go around it, not how fast some reviewer did.

The imperative should be in buying something that's fun to drive and enjoy it - if that so happens to be the fastest car at the time, then so be it. Unless you are the aforementioned exception to the norm, how fast your car goes around some track is merely material for friendly pissing matches with your buddies. Stop giving so much worry to who has the faster car. Because if that is your only criteria, realize that you are never more than a couple years away from being unhappy when a competitor releases something faster.

So you paid $20K more for a GT350 because performance doesn't matter. And yet they quit making the bargain basement V6 Mustang, which like the Camry is perfectly adequate for the use the average owner will put it to.

And of course when you start talking about $7000+ performace packages, more of those owners will use that extra performance, and care about any performance advantage/disadvantage.

Actually, if no one cares about the performance difference between the Mustang and the Camaro, we wouldn't have this thread (or the dozen like it). Nor would Motor Trend, Car & Driver, Road & Track, etc. write the articles (and maybe wouldn't exist).

 

[Timeless]

And a Camry smokes them both in sales, so the Camry must be the better car, right?

Jump the shark much?

If sales don't matter (only performance), then why did they quit making the Camaro?

 

[Norm Peterson]

IMO - Boiling down the quality of a car to a track time is an exercise in reductionism and largely misses the point of owning one. Only a tiny minority of buyers will truly find it relevant - if you are actually one of those people then all the power to you. I think as a group, we overestimate the number of folks that fall into that category.

I get that it's fun to have friendly banter regarding who's car is faster around a track, but is it really that important?

I guess a corner-carver's attitude is something you have to have before you can understand it. But is it really any different than being focused on straightline acceleration stats? Or feature content or appearance, for that matter.

I don't buy cars all that often - our overall purchase cycle currently stands at just under 6.5 years since 1971. But for every one of those cars, going back over 45 years, the cornering and handling stats and related subjectives were up there at or very near the top of the car class we were looking into, and were among the very top reasons for the choice made.

It's only been recently that lap times have been available as yet another set of data points.

The average buyer, including a sizeable portion of those on this board, are not able to consistently replicate the track times set by professionals, and/or they are not financially capable of tracking the car on a regular basis. Most PP cars will never even see a track. Ultimately, the only lap time that should matter is how fast YOU go around it, not how fast some reviewer did.

But how fast I'm able to go around a track is still somewhat dependent on what the car is capable of, and the same thing applies to most anybody else. If I'm two seconds slower than Reviewer A in a Mustang, chances are I'm going to be about two seconds slower in a Camaro than Reviewer A is in that same Camaro, assuming the same track. Actually, I have a pretty good baseline for my home track for the car I do have. No reason to expect it to be much different if I was to get a S550, not after some track time anyway.

The imperative should be in buying something that's fun to drive and enjoy it - if that so happens to be the fastest car at the time, then so be it. Unless you are the aforementioned exception to the norm, how fast your car goes around some track is merely material for friendly pissing matches with your buddies. Stop giving so much worry to who has the faster car. Because if that is your only criteria, realize that you are never more than a couple years away from being unhappy when a competitor releases something faster.

It's not just about speed and lap times. Or g's and slalom times. Composure while doing it matters, too, and that translates all the way down to brisk street driving if you're paying enough attention. If you let yourself get unhappy when the performance of your current ride is bumped down, you might as well admit to being more of a fanboy than a corner-carver and be done with it.


Norm

 

[accel]

Not at all. The Camaro MAGAZINE results are the branding and naming. Camaro is slightly better at some things that very few people use the car for, so it gets some magazine wins.

The Mustang gets the sales wins which are the true wins because overall it's the better car.

True. If you have some local autoX chapters in your area - check how many drivers attend those. That'd be 0.0.. whatever %. _Some_ of those would be ones that might care of which car is actually faster, but even among those most are guys that ride their DD cars. And so they value practicality and might preffer mustang over camaro.

There are, of course, always drivers that do not ever do any kind of racing but preffer to have a car with highest potential. I think this is the category that mostly would be attracted to a camaro if they look into american muscle category. They enjoy themselves even though people around do not know about their potential or simply do not care.

I like Mustang as it's more practical. I can have people in the rear and spend the weekend with my family and with the Mustang, I can meet people at the airport and fit their suitcase in the trunk, etc.

I, personally, besides better practicality preffer Mustang cause they compete with the engine with smaller displacement, so they care about efficiency more.

All in all - I am not jealous at all - all kinds of comparos are nice and add to statistics. I bought 2017 as it was some very nice bang for the buck and if I didn't do that last year, not sure I'd be willing to pay extra thousands for mustang in 2018.

 

[Hack]

If I were really looking for an awesome track car and I didn't mind making modifications I'd be in a Miata with lots of upgrades. In theory an older Corvette would be a decent choice as well, but those are too expensive around here.

Neither is practical enough for me, though. The track performance of my car is way down my priority list even though I love going to the track as much as possible.

Sponsored