MT Head 2 Head - 2018 Camaro SS 1LE vs 2018 Mustang GT

[millhouse]

So, Ford actually seriously considered the trans and diff coolers for the GT PP. They decided against it as it was a ~$300 cost hit. I'd argue that it should've been an option or standard on the PP only, even if it increased the price of the PP by $500. I also agree that it absolutely should be on the PP2 cars, and that it's a serious miss to not include them on a package with only one intention.

Agreed. PP2 absolutely should have had both a diff and trans cooler.

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[thill444]

If you add the coolers will it void your powertrain warranty?

 

[Competition Orange]

So, Ford actually seriously considered the trans and diff coolers for the GT PP. They decided against it as it was a ~$300 cost hit. I'd argue that it should've been an option or standard on the PP only, even if it increased the price of the PP by $500. I also agree that it absolutely should be on the PP2 cars, and that it's a serious miss to not include them on a package with only one intention.

Kinda crazy. At least give us the option FFS. Making them standard on the PP2 and bumping it to $6,950 woulda been just fine...

 

[02gtnh]

If they test a GT w/PP1vs a GT w/PP2 I suspect you will see similar results for the 1 mile test.

That I would totally disagree. Your not going from 255/275 tires to 305 squared and have the same speed after a mile. It may get to 157mph, but will take longer to get there.:cheers:

 

[millhouse]

If you add the coolers will it void your powertrain warranty?

It won't, but it's up to the individual dealers to warranty them. Adding a trans cooler won't affect the engine or diff....and if something goes wrong with the trans, they would have to prove that the cooler was a contributing factor. Unless they are installed incorrectly or you somehow snag a cooler line and drain out all the fluid, they would be quite hard pressed to prove anything.

 

[Eritas]

"Performance" Packages (1LE, GTPP, PP2) should have coolers. Want to save money? Don't track your car? Don't need coolers or bigger brakes? Buy a base GT. Hell, a Camaro SS has coolers. I wonder what genius thinks track oriented cars shouldn't have coolers. :headbonk:

 

[millhouse]

"Performance" Packages (1LE, GTPP, PP2) should have coolers. Want to save money? Don't track your car? Don't need coolers or bigger brakes? Buy a base GT. Hell, a Camaro SS has coolers. I wonder what genius thinks track oriented cars shouldn't have coolers. :headbonk:

So 1% of the performance pack buyers complain...and they should suddenly include coolers? The performance pack is and has been a street car first, and track car second. 99% will never be concerned about the differential overheating. Ford isn't going to lose any appreciable amount of sales by excluding coolers from the PP1. They are making money off of the 99%.

Now the PP2, absolutely...they come with track tires for crying out loud.

 

[metros11]

3.5 seconds huh? Sounds like the PP2 will get beat, too. Unless those tires/wheels can make up the difference.

PP2 also gets suspension tweaks, likely closer to GT350 spec, if not exactly GT350 spec.

the manual in the Camaro is way better then the mt82.

Debatable. Yes, you can argue the Tremec is better. I drove an 18 GT PP with the newly revised MT82, it was pretty damn good.

They built that platform to fight BMW. The problem is they ran out of money for the rest of the brand, and the cars still don’t have BMW fit, finish and refinement. But as a function of chassis it’s best in breed. Period.

The chassis was built for Cadillac to compete with BMW as you said. But the Chevy will never get the fit and finish of a BMW, that's to be expected.

I don't own a Mustang or Camaro but I think the Mustang is a far better looking car and a more functional daily driver. It's unfortunate that with that chasis GM did not change the styling more for the 6th gen and improve the poor visibility and claustraphobic cabin.

Believe it or not, they did improve visibility. If ever so slightly.

fixed

I cross shopped a Mustang and a Camaro. Visibility and dimensions don't bother me as much as some, but that could be because I'm 5'10. Honestly, I'll gladly sacrifice some visibility for performance. If I wanted something with more ergonomics I probably would have bought a Chevy SS or a Focus ST.

That's a good point but I think styling and practicality is more of an issue for Camaro vs Mustang. I know styling is personal preference, but I honestly find the Camaro exterior styling way more polarizing. The sight lines are terrible in the car and that reason alone may scare buyers away.

This bears repeating, fan boys will buy their brand no matter what, performance oriented drivers with no allegiance will buy the better performer, and general public will buy the better looking and/or cheaper car. This is exactly why the Mustang outsells the Camaro and in that regard it's why Ford is winning the sales race.

[MENTION=32740]metros11[/MENTION] This. I agree it's great value and a damn fast and well-equipped car. I've driven two of the new SS. Each time I couldn't get over the visibility or a few of the interior ergo issues (mostly the vent placement...seriously wtf), nor is that interior or trunk big enough to live with outside of being a weekend-only or track car.

I had my own personal review that I posted a few months back when I was cross shopping both. The Mustang is an absolutely wonderful GT car. I loved almost everything about it. If I was buying strictly a daily driver with an occasional straight line race, this would probably be my choice between the two. But I was shopping for a sports car, not a grand tourer. And again, I didn't find the room or visibility of the Mustang that much better to sway me. Now that's strictly my opinion. But there are also plenty of people who pretend that if you drive a Camaro you might as well be inside a tank, and that's simply not true. Is that cabin tighter than the Mustang's? Do you sit lower? Is there less usable space? Yes, Yes and Yes. But I'm 5'10 and 175 lbs and it fits me fine, I like the seating position better, I can fit everything I need in the spaces provided, and yes, I CAN see out of it! Those people that bypass the Camaro because of those reasons without test driving it are selling themselves short.

Agreed. PP2 absolutely should have had both a diff and trans cooler.

But it won't, and it won't be warrantied on the track either. If it did, I'd probably be a Mustang owner.

 

[azelmo]

Dude, how many people are actually going to do that with their cars? Be serious here. Few enough do something as relatively low risk/cost as going to the drag strip. I honestly don't see more than 1/500 owners of the GT PP or SS going to a track and running for 20+ minutes straight (brakes, tires, oil, etc, are not insignificant costs and add up quick - plus you might wreck your daily). To me, caring that one or the other is better after going 20+ minutes at 100% on the track because one will exhibit overheating issues is like making a decision based on which car has the higher top speed (and I would guess that more people will see their car's top speed than will ever go 20+ minutes on a track).

I tracked my 2017 Mustang GT Performance Package all the time (it's not my dd) Never once did it overheat and go into limp mode. It would last longer on the track then my brothers GT350, which would go into limp mode (due to no oil cooler). I have on order a PP2 now and look forward to more track days.

 

[Eritas]

So 1% of the performance pack buyers complain...and they should suddenly include coolers? The performance pack is and has been a street car first, and track car second. 99% will never be concerned about the differential overheating. Ford isn't going to lose any appreciable amount of sales by excluding coolers from the PP1. They are making money off of the 99%.

Now the PP2, absolutely...they come with track tires for crying out loud.

Cars and Coffee racers don't need bigger radiators, bigger brakes, or an LSD. Those customers would just buy the GT. If they want a track-capable car with the 'cool' brakes. Then buy the Performance Pack. There's a lot of GT350 owners who will never see a track who don't complain about their coolers, short of buying a GT350, that's the only way to get a 'track-capable' car. :frusty:

 

[Competition Orange]

PP2 also gets suspension tweaks, likely closer to GT350 spec, if not exactly GT350 spec.

Yeah I think the sum of all changes from pp1 to pp2 will produce results beyond just 305 MPSC2s on a pp1.

. Yes, you can argue the Tremec is better. I drove an 18 GT PP with the newly revised MT82, it was pretty damn good.

I agree, the 18 box is much nicer than the 15. With that said, the gear ratios are dumb, IMO.

I cross shopped a Mustang and a Camaro. Visibility and dimensions don't bother me as much as some, but that could be because I'm 5'10. Honestly, I'll gladly sacrifice some visibility for performance. If I wanted something with more ergonomics I probably would have bought a Chevy SS or a Focus ST.

I wish it was just "some visibility" for me.

This bears repeating, fan boys will buy their brand no matter what, performance oriented drivers with no allegiance will buy the better performer, and general public will buy the better looking and/or cheaper car. This is exactly why the Mustang outsells the Camaro and in that regard it's why Ford is winning the sales race.

I have zero brand allegiance, I'm an ex german car guy. I chose the Mustang because I fit in the damn thing!!!

I had my own personal review that I posted a few months back when I was cross shopping both. The Mustang is an absolutely wonderful GT car. I loved almost everything about it. If I was buying strictly a daily driver with an occasional straight line race, this would probably be my choice between the two. But I was shopping for a sports car, not a grand tourer. And again, I didn't find the room or visibility of the Mustang that much better to sway me. Now that's strictly my opinion. But there are also plenty of people who pretend that if you drive a Camaro you might as well be inside a tank, and that's simply not true. Is that cabin tighter than the Mustang's? Do you sit lower? Is there less usable space? Yes, Yes and Yes. But I'm 5'10 and 175 lbs and it fits me fine, I like the seating position better, I can fit everything I need in the spaces provided, and yes, I CAN see out of it! Those people that bypass the Camaro because of those reasons without test driving it are selling themselves short.
But it won't, and it won't be warrantied on the track either. If it did, I'd probably be a Mustang owner.

I agree, the camaro is a great car, the better performance bargain IMO. I'd own one if I fit in them. I don't like their looks, but to your point above, I'd have traded visibility and looks for fit and performance.

 

[Competition Orange]

Cars and Coffee racers don't need bigger radiators, bigger brakes, or an LSD. Those customers would just buy the GT. If they want a track-capable car with the 'cool' brakes. Then buy the Performance Pack. There's a lot of GT350 owners who will never see a track who don't complain about their coolers, short of buying a GT350, that's the only way to get a 'track-capable' car. :frusty:

I kinda like the 3 levels Ford has. Coolers on PP2 makes the most sense to me given the levels available, and their content.

 

[millhouse]

Cars and Coffee racers don't need bigger radiators, bigger brakes, or an LSD. Those customers would just buy the GT. If they want a track-capable car with the 'cool' brakes. Then buy the Performance Pack. There's a lot of GT350 owners who will never see a track who don't complain about their coolers, short of buying a GT350, that's the only way to get a 'track-capable' car. :frusty:

The sheer volume of performance packs sold for the 15-17 GT's says otherwise. I'll have to see if I can find it, but the buy rate was something along the lines of 30% of all GT's. I myself seeked out the performance pack for the bigger brakes, wider tires and torsen diff....knowing the only track it will ever see will likely be the dragstrip.

The bigger brakes by themselves were damn worth the money...and offered an aesthetic difference well worth the money. It also came with better wheels, wider tires and a better differential. Each one of those components offer a visual and performance aspect that makes a difference on the road.

Ford knew all of this...which is why they jacked up the price for the MY17.

 

[Eritas]

Fair Enough. Poser Pack 1, Poser Pack 2. Please give us a TRACK PACK to fight the 1LE.

 

[Glenn G]

The sheer volume of performance packs sold for the 15-17 GT's says otherwise. I'll have to see if I can find it, but the buy rate was something along the lines of 30% of all GT's. I myself seeked out the performance pack for the bigger brakes, wider tires and torsen diff....knowing the only track it will ever see will likely be the dragstrip.

The bigger brakes by themselves were damn worth the money...and offered an aesthetic difference well worth the money. It also came with better wheels, wider tires and a better differential. Each one of those components offer a visual and performance aspect that makes a difference on the road.

Ford knew all of this...which is why they jacked up the price for the MY17.

This, I have gotten to know many Mustang owners during the last 2 years, Most actually have the PP and the owners have 0 intentions of ever seeing the track (Drag or Road Course), they just didn't want the "inferior" car.

I think Ford did a good job offering a base car. I think the PP is a great value, especially if you want to leave the car stock, Base is good if you want a cheap car or plan on swapping out everything anyways.

I changed my order from a PP with Recaros to a non PP non-Recaro after I had a test drive for a few reasons.
The Recaros were not bad but nt that comfortable, after driving a car with base seats I was sold, Honestly the best stock seats I have ever had in any car.

I hated the suspension in the PP (Bouncy), I also hated it in the base car (Floaty) so I knew it was going to go, why pay extra for it?

I wasn't a fan of the EB PP wheels and read how heavy they were, and I have never liked a single Pirrelli tire I ever drove on, even the Pirelli winter tires on my wife's old Alfa Romeo(May that car burn in hell) were only marginally good in the snow. The summer tires were every bit as bad as the p-zero horror stories heard here.

I had a really light weight set of rims from my Supra that I wanted to use, Literally half the weight of a pp rim and tire.

The biggest reason was the gearing, I live in Germany and the car needs legs here. I really wanted the 3.31s to take advantage of the torque this motor makes down low, It hurts acceleration down low but helps when your typical autobahn "passing maneuver" around that BMW driving like a prick begins at 100 mph.

The only thing I regret are the brakes, They look much better on a PP car and absolutely killer on the GTPP, I figured I was going to buy GTPP brakes at some point anyways, but the stock brakes have hauled me down from 170mph multiple times without complaint or worry (I wouldn't trust them on a second lap of the Nurburgring though). I did one lap in the EB and it was fine but the brakes were getting really soft at the end.

The only cooler I wish it had was an oil cooler. Engine oil temps can get in the high yellow after an extended Autobahn run.

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