Breather experts come in

[Bartly]

So kind of on topic, figured you guys with the UPR Procharger setup would know the answer. I bought one and am going to install it, but may end up going breathers eventually due to this thread, have to see (since I just spent the money on the UPR can). I see no instructions in the UPR instructions on "gutting" the passenger PCV valve. It just states to "T" both passenger and driver side together and plumb into the can. How will the passenger side open up this work, since the port on the intake is plugged and no longer connected to the passenger side?

Thanks to all those who have commented in this thread, it's slowly starting to make some sense.

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[Tommy V]

Not surprised at all with your results. The main goal of any PCV system is to eliminate crank case pressure and evacuate the oil vapors (spent gases from the combustion process mixed with your oil). There are many ways to go about it, unfortunately any that utilize the motors vacuum it naturally produces will face the risk of sucking the same vapors right back through the combustion process. In fact factory systems are designed to burn off the excess vapors, and so are designed to let the oil vapors pass right through and into the intake. And as preached (correctly so) this can and will hurt performance.

But if you set aside your failed result in a factory-style routing, think about it this way...you have four choices in how to relieve and/or evacuate your crank case. (1) Factory vacuum on one side, vent on other side, (2) open to atmosphere on both sides, (3) vent to exhaust (creates venturi effect as exhaust has velocity and with suck out the vapors as it passes by the connection point), or (4) some sort of mechanical vacuum source such as a electric or belt driven vacuum pump.

Option (1) provides THE BEST evacuation, as you will be constantly applying vacuum to the crankcase on the passenger side and pulling in fresh air from the driver side. However, you have THE HIGHEST chance of putting oil residue right back into the motor. There are some pretty fancy oil catch cans out there, if you found that you were still blowing vapors into the intake, well then sorry to say that catch can isn't living up to its job. I have used MANY different brand catch cans over the years on some very high horsepower setups...my findings were BIGGER is better, and any design where the inlet and outlet of the catch can are horizontally aligned, no bueno. The volume of crank case pressure after a full throttle pull is nearly impossible for this type of design to accommodate, coupled with the fact that the instant you let off the throttle you also are applying MAXIMUM vacuum on the port of the catch can directly across from the port that the huge amount of oil vapor is coming in. You have to dig into the design too, some catch cans appear to have the inlet/outlet aligned but when you open it up, some have machined a passage that makes the outlet vent from the bottom of the can, this is GOOD. No stainless mesh filled catch can will be able to cope with that scenario, either. Further, the stainless mesh designs will release oil vapor over time as the catch can heats up and you apply vacuum under regular driving.

The best designed cans for option (1) have been universal (even ebay ok) where the top of the can has two vertical inlet/outlets, with a mesh filling, that has a separate side for inlet and outlet (like a divider between). The other name brand I have seen is made for the Hemi platform made by API, their design is the best I have seen, inlet goes to a spiral machined path way packed with mesh, deposits to the can below, the outlet is venting from the can and has a oil resistant mesh filter before the air exits as extra precaution. This design worked the BEST on the DRIVER side, which is where the big blast of air will come after a full throttle pull, if you have your factory PCV valve still installed. I haven't found many basic catch cans that couldn't do the job on the passenger side, but still need to run a good quality one with easy drain.

If you want to just ensure you have a 100% clean intake, and don't allow excess crankcase pressure, and dont want smokey pipes after a full throttle pull (happens with (3)) then a vent to atmosphere is your next best option (2). However, a simple filter on each valve cover is NOT GOOD. In less than 1000 miles you will likely oil soak the filter, which will DRASTICALLY reduce its breathing ability, and without knowing you could actually be not venting ANY pressure anymore, really wont know until you start seeing smoke out the tail pipe or leaky valve cover gaskets. Best to get a large overflow style tank, and route both valve cover vents, with passenger PCV valve gutted, to the large tank, which should come fitted with a large filter on the top. Its a BIG looking setup, but works very well if your primary concern is oil vapor.

Option (3) is very basic, works better than (2) both during cruising and WOT but isn't as good as (1) for cruising and idling. You WILL see smoke after a pass on the highway or hard WOT pull. Most universal exhaust vent kits include an oil accumulator that installs in the vent lines on both sides, but are designed to puke whatever is in them after ever full throttle run and burn the oil off through the exhaust.

Option (4) is expensive and really doesn't work well on more modern cars.

Hope that helps a bit....

Yes but on a boosted car its different,na the motor needs the pvc to vent vapors,boosted cars have the pressure from the supercharger/turbo to help push out the vapors from the motor.Breathers are the way to go imo no mist gojng into the intake trac and killing octane .

 

[TooSoonJunior]

Yes but on a boosted car its different,na the motor needs the pvc to vent vapors,boosted cars have the pressure from the supercharger/turbo to help push out the vapors from the motor.Breathers are the way to go imo no mist gojng into the intake trac and killing octane .

That's not correct. The only difference NA to boosted is cylinder pressure, which has nothing to do with boost or NA but simply the motor is making more power, which results in higher amounts of blow by in the piston ring pack. In no way shape or how should anyone be routing boost pressure into their crankcase to help vent the crank case. I can create the same amount of crank case pressure with nitrous, NA (would be tough but a 9k rpm NA build might do it), or boosted application and would need the same amount of PCV support and setup.

Every motor needs the same amount of idling and cruising crankcase pressure relief and evacuation. In fact a built motor for boost needs even MORE ventilation during regular driving as they are setup with larger ring gaps to accommodate the high cylinder pressures under boost, and when not in boost tend to puke a lot of blowby when the rings aren't compressed.

 

[Marvinmadman]

Vacuum in the crankcase at all times is the way to go. Boost pushing out vapors from the crankcase?
:doh:

 

[TooSoonJunior]

Here one more way to describe it. All motors need vacuum assistance to actually evacuate and clean out the crank case during idling and cruising. Higher power cars, with the additional cylinder pressure and resulting crank case pressure, will sometimes overwhelm a standard pcv->catch can->vacuum style setup.

Venting to atmosphere means under regular driving and idling, you are not evacuating any vapors, your crankcase is 100% filled at all times with a nasty mix of blowby and oil vapor, and only when crankcase pressure builds high enough will you evacuate some of it, but will be immediately replaced by more of the same, not fresh air like a vacuum style setup. There are many studies and research done on the impact of having your crank case filled with those vapors and giving them a much better chance of mixing with the oil in the pan. Its why cars after the 1980's come equipped with them, the engineers decided the performance loss was worth the gain of having fresh air in the crankcase, less oil degradation, and a longer living motor.

 

[Tommy V]

I never said route boost pressure to vent pvc.The little extra negative pressue that comes from the intake tube is nowhere near the amount of vaccum that is used to remove vapors from a na setupAnd yes i know all about the extra blowby that boosted applications cause.Their is a reason the pvc sytem is routed differentley when changing to a boosted setup,sometimes i just word shit bad lol..

 

[TooSoonJunior]

I gotcha man. The "little negative pressure" from the intake tube is the ONLY below atmosphere pressure you have available under wide open throttle, best to use that as well. Vacuum under idling cruising, intake tube under WOT. This is how your car comes from the factory.

 

[Tommy V]

I gotcha man. The "little negative pressure" from the intake tube is the ONLY below atmosphere pressure you have available under wide open throttle, best to use that as well. Vacuum under idling cruising, intake tube under WOT. This is how your car comes from the factory.

I gotcha thats why i went with breathers,but to be honest i never have had any oil on my breathers or when pvc was hooked up,my tube/throttle body have always been bone dry.Some of the other boosted systems i have seen,the amount of oil that was coming into the intake trac hsd to be caused by blowbye and that can increase crankcase pressure.They were not running more then 13 psi of boost.My car is hard to use as an example becaise it only had 6k miles on it.

 

[Bartly]

So kind of on topic, figured you guys with the UPR Procharger setup would know the answer. I bought one and am going to install it, but may end up going breathers eventually due to this thread, have to see (since I just spent the money on the UPR can). I see no instructions in the UPR instructions on "gutting" the passenger PCV valve. It just states to "T" both passenger and driver side together and plumb into the can. How will the passenger side open up this work, since the port on the intake is plugged and no longer connected to the passenger side?

Thanks to all those who have commented in this thread, it's slowly starting to make some sense.

Somebody answer this ^ guys question, lol. Does the passenger side need to be "gutted" when hooking up the Procharger UPR can?

 

[Marvinmadman]

I'd replace the PCV valve with an OEM hollow fitting instead of gutting it. But yeah, at least gut it. It will serve no purpose other than restricting flow.

 

[whatsup62]

Somebody answer this ^ guys question, lol. Does the passenger side need to be "gutted" when hooking up the Procharger UPR can?

I did not. I ran it with the PCV in place. Instead of taking it back to the intake I took it to the can.

 

[sigintel]

(Pressure above piston - Pressure below piston) * Piston Area = Force on Rod

Reducing pressure in crankcase (below piston) means more force/torque/horsepower.

 

[Dennisn]

Okay. That's definitely a little more re-assuring. I just gutted the pcv and I'm going to test it later on today. However, when driving over the past week it definitely seems to have a decent amount of oil accumulation in the exhaust. I just polished the tips on Saturday and they're already pretty dark again. I would've run a catch can system but honestly, the Hellion setup was already so cramped I just wanted a little breathing room in there. I just haven't seen a lot of videos or posts about an excessive amount of oil being burned through this system. It's boosting great and it's intermittent, so I'm doubtful that it's a head gasket or piston ring (I haven't even been to 10lbs yet).

I have the exact same white smoke/ oil on the exhaust pipes.

Couple things to check, Pop off one or both of your drains that are tapped into your oil pan and make sure oil level is not above them. That's one thing that'll prevent them from draining properly. Other thing to check is make absolutely sure your drains are on a constant down grade.. I just found my one was level at one spot and so far it's seems better with the smoke out the exhaust.

 

[GT Pony]

Before when I was NA I had the JLT seperator on the PCV line. I would empty a teaspoon or two out of it every 2-3k miles. When I installed my Procharger (required taking off TB) I reached into the intake manifold and felt A LOT of oil. Took a rag in there and soaked up a shit ton of oil (translation A LOT).

I went and purchased an expensive catch can set-up specifically designed for the PC and installed it. After a couple thousand miles I emptied it and there was probably an ounce of watery nasty stuff...now I am thinking I'm Golden. Settle in and just drive the car now not looking under the hood very often. Went and did an oil change on the car. Noticed a lot of oily residue on the left side of the Procharger head unit and support bracket. Started to panic a bit and thought the head unit was leaking oil...made a post on here about it. Procharger Tech made a response in the thread that they have very little issue with leaks, what he suggested was excessive oil vapor was coming back through the intake tube and the Procharger has no way of returning that oil...it starts to accumulate and leaks out the impeller area on the head unit.

So did the catch can setup for the ProCharge have it's own catch dedicated can on the driver's side for the "fresh air" side of the PCV system?

Of course going with breathers on both sides of the engine will totally eliminate oil from getting into the intake manifold, but as mentioned many times by TooSoonJunior there are negative issues with not evacuating the crankcase of nasty blow-by vapors.

Here's maybe a better way to go for forced induction:
I haven't seen anyone mention running a catch can on the passenger side ("dirty side" of the system) that's connected to the intake manifold as normal, and then run an open breather on just the passenger side ("fresh air side" of the system) to still allow the engine to draw fresh air through the crankcase under normal driving conditions.

With a setup that that, when the throttle goes WOT then the open breather can release excess crankcase pressure from boost blow-by without contaminating the intake manifold.

 

[Marvinmadman]

Because that would be a big vacuum leak. You could do it with the breathers that have the check ball in them though.

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