Procharger Supercharged GT350

[stanglife]

What a tease! . What did it make on 6lbs?

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[chops44]

Engine pic

Post up vids if you've got any! I've got kooks ready to go on mine but no PC yet....You suck and I'm jealous lol

 

[superman07]

I've got a '17 with a PC on it. Ken @ Palm Beach has been doing the remote tuning and I'm very pleased.

Ken seems to be doing a couple guys cars, that's great the tune should be solid.

 

[olaosunt]

I bet.
Probably best to get a dyno tune if doing this .
I was talking to Lund about tuning the whipple and he said it would be have be on a dyno .

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

I talked with Taylor at MMR said he recommended only the pivoting timing chain rail below 1000hp. The engine builder at Livornois he only builds engines and has nothing to do with selling parts said not even that. Livernois do offer their own brand only the pivoting rail for builds up to 2500hp. They've tested the 5.2L and were confident only the OPG needed to be changed below 1000hp. The crank sprocket was cheap insurance although they've never personally experienced a stock failure they always change them out though.

If you read the Kenne Bell 1000hp build for the gold Hertz car recently posted in the forum they said the heads were cnc machined and smoothing out the ridges in the ports from the cnc netted zero gains and those are noticeable the throttle body not so I doubt any claims of gains by polishing. Livernois said there was only 5% gain to be had reworking the heads and didn't recommend it for builds below 1000hp due to cost vs gains. Claimed no other room for improvements on the intake outside of boost or drag specific sheetmetal hi-ram. They did recommend valve springs for boosted applications also said on E85 the stock timing rails were fine MMR said to go billet.

The master mech I spoke to at the dealer said the same timing rails and guides parts were on the flex fuel F150 and they service fleet vehicles. They had one with 200k on the original engine and when he looked at the timing set there was very little wear and that car ran E98 100% of the time as a fleet truck which is more corrosive than E85 .

So be cautious about some of MMR claims they make it sound like your engine needs all sorts of work and their parts but thats just not the case they just want to sell parts. I lost almost $300 sending parts back because I didn't need them and believed the hype before researching so save yourself some grief OPG and crank sprocket and your good. Anything above 1000hp means re-sleeving the block which is a total tear down and rebuild at that point. I'm not knocking MMR they have some useful parts but having bought both MRR and TSS from a forum sponsoring vendor and loosing money I know which I would go with and what parts are needed and not. The sponsoring vendor didn't charge the restocking for the exchange it went to the MRR.

Also consider your warranty if your engine did fail. MMR looks shinny billet and all that and has extensive labeling. The TSS parts only have a minimal part number stamping and have the same exterior appearance and finish as stock. So the mech will never know the difference and not void your warranty if you had an engine failure and stumbles on aftermarkets parts. The TSS OPG and sprocket shouldn't fail being able to handle twice your engines output so no worries those breaking and being sent back to ford tech or engineers where they say aftermarket no warranty.

If you look at the official Ford cobra jet engine no timing parts were upgraded and that has 1000hp on boost at 9k rpm.

I like cool aftermarket parts also but under warranty its ill advised and after warranty perhaps for looks rather than function if you've got money to burn. Take the 1200 you would have spent on complete billet timing and spend that on a carbon driveshaft to handle the extra power from boost or beef up your clutch with an RXT Mcleod.

Thanks for posting this very detailed information, very much appreciated sir! So it sounds like the OEM block and internals are fairly stout, did they mention anything regarding the durability of the parts at higher rpms, i.e a 9000rpm redline? I know the Cobra Jet engine revs that high, but as a dedicated drag-strip race car I'm not sure that restraint or durability concerns really factors into that build as it would the 5.2 Voodoo that is designed to see street use and a LOT more miles than the CJ car.

 

[GrayGt350]

I talked with Taylor at MMR said he recommended only the pivoting timing chain rail below 1000hp. The engine builder at Livornois he only builds engines and has nothing to do with selling parts said not even that. Livernois do offer their own brand only the pivoting rail for builds up to 2500hp. They've tested the 5.2L and were confident only the OPG needed to be changed below 1000hp. The crank sprocket was cheap insurance although they've never personally experienced a stock failure they always change them out though.

If you read the Kenne Bell 1000hp build for the gold Hertz car recently posted in the forum they said the heads were cnc machined and smoothing out the ridges in the ports from the cnc netted zero gains and those are noticeable the throttle body not so I doubt any claims of gains by polishing. Livernois said there was only 5% gain to be had reworking the heads and didn't recommend it for builds below 1000hp due to cost vs gains. Claimed no other room for improvements on the intake outside of boost or drag specific sheetmetal hi-ram. They did recommend valve springs for boosted applications also said on E85 the stock timing rails were fine MMR said to go billet.

The master mech I spoke to at the dealer said the same timing rails and guides parts were on the flex fuel F150 and they service fleet vehicles. They had one with 200k on the original engine and when he looked at the timing set there was very little wear and that car ran E98 100% of the time as a fleet truck which is more corrosive than E85 .

So be cautious about some of MMR claims they make it sound like your engine needs all sorts of work and their parts but thats just not the case they just want to sell parts. I lost almost $300 sending parts back because I didn't need them and believed the hype before researching so save yourself some grief OPG and crank sprocket and your good. Anything above 1000hp means re-sleeving the block which is a total tear down and rebuild at that point. I'm not knocking MMR they have some useful parts but having bought both MRR and TSS from a forum sponsoring vendor and loosing money I know which I would go with and what parts are needed and not. The sponsoring vendor didn't charge the restocking for the exchange it went to the MRR.

Also consider your warranty if your engine did fail. MMR looks shinny billet and all that and has extensive labeling. The TSS parts only have a minimal part number stamping and have the same exterior appearance and finish as stock. So the mech will never know the difference and not void your warranty if you had an engine failure and stumbles on aftermarkets parts. The TSS OPG and sprocket shouldn't fail being able to handle twice your engines output so no worries those breaking and being sent back to ford tech or engineers where they say aftermarket no warranty.

If you look at the official Ford cobra jet engine no timing parts were upgraded and that has 1000hp on boost at 9k rpm.

I like cool aftermarket parts also but under warranty its ill advised and after warranty perhaps for looks rather than function if you've got money to burn. Take the 1200 you would have spent on complete billet timing and spend that on a carbon driveshaft to handle the extra power from boost or beef up your clutch with an RXT Mcleod.

Love this!

 

[Lexluther]

@ J_Maher_AMG

Yes the motor can rev that high with a better balancer. Since the voodoo crank is a hollow forging to be lightweight but it also needs heavier counter weights being a flat plane to balance rotational mass. The Cobra jet coyote is solid since its a blown application with light counters for a cross plane so without weights they appear equal at face value. The flat plane engine balance is inherent end to end like putting 2 inline 4 together although its not as refined and without balance shafts there is vibration at the crank pins due to rotational balance. Since there isn't a weight comparison between the cranks the bulk weight comparison can't be made. Hellion boosted the engine to 800whp as did Lethal performance with more power on the downstroke there would be more force on the rods and crank pins. The mathematic equation to more power at low rpm vs. lower power at higher rpm I can't make without knowing the science and specific weights of the parts to make that calculation.

I can say in fact however AED tuning sets rpm 1k higher so thats 9250rpm. Some guys here on the forum with AED tune have reported accidentally going to 9k with no ill affect. However Shaun at AED is adamant not to rev it that hight since the power curve flattens out at 7500rpm and there's simply no power there your just dragging the engine along, he does it in case you miss a shift.

So the answer is yes you can go to 9k rpm however its unknown if that would be sustainable for any periods of time since there is no need due to the way the voodoo makes power and where it tops out at so nobody has tried or will.

 

[chops44]

All good info here for sure. A concern I have is the piston crown thickness and the ring package used on 5.2. How are they going to handle the added stresses?? I don't really know if anyone has had the time to really know.

 

[Lexluther]

The rings are further down from the crown than you think and they are low tension because of the plasma sprayed bore liners. They appear at the top due to the valve recesses on the piston. On blown application the boost goes through the least path of resistance which is behind the rings between the piston so the rings expand. You get some blow by between the bores and rings but not as much as you think because of the ring expansion. Ring expansion for boost isn't in the Ford formula so not sure how long before this becomes and adverse condition. Due to extra boost and friction heat not sure until the rings give as the application of tension have been severely altered as is the ring end gap which will increase. The rings move around on the piston and at some point sometimes the end gaps line up and you get blow by at the bores which will spike PCV pressure under full boost and your exceeding the limits severely. There should be PCV venting to the outside atmosphere on boosted applications so you can purge during pressure spikes and not dislodge seals.

As far as crown thickness they appear the same as a coyote so 800hp cap. Power numbers beyond that have been on E85 which burns cooler than 93 which will be hotter and harder on the crowns. Only the procharger and vortec advertise high numbers on boost on 93octane. However those kits are modified GT kits I doubt any durability or failure tests have been done on a voodoo with boost. The car is too new and not enough blown up due to mods to learn the do's and don'ts. Thats why Hellion took precautions and changed pistons and rods when they exceeded 800hp and 9psi of boost on pump gas.

Look at 32seconds in the vid where the rings are

Before that you can see how the crank has holes and is hollow.

http://cdn.enginelabs.com/image/2015/01/voodoo-cut-away-136.jpg

https://i1.wp.com/www.*************...s/2015/01/3-Shelby-GT350-5.2-liter-Engine.jpg

On The Hellion Turbo build I don't see where they spec'd their custom Arias pistons any different but the pic looks to move everything down about an 1/8th inch. But they had to also move the wrist pin up so entire piston down to retain valve clearance. That changes the leverage so you can see the rings are spaced out a little different and the recess cut out of the skirts are larger at the bottom and pushed further back around the wrist pin.

http://www.stangtv.com/tech-stories...oosts-the-worlds-most-powerful-shelby-gt350r/

 

[Voodooo]

This is hard to tell on my phone, but it looks to me that the ring lands are moved down and the top ring land is thicker. Which is good for heat. Also I'm curious if they kept the same rod length and changed the compression height. Looking at the parting line at the rod cap, it looks like on my phone that the Manley rod is longer. Which would definitely change the piston compression height. It could be an illusion from the thicker wrist pin. The skirts look to be the same length but the barrel is shorter to remove weight.

 

[Voodooo]

Guess I spoke to soon. After reading the build article they state the piston is the same weight and dimensions as stock.

 

[Deranged1]

@ J_Maher_AMG

Yes the motor can rev that high with a better balancer. Since the voodoo crank is a hollow forging to be lightweight but it also needs heavier counter weights being a flat plane to balance rotational mass. The Cobra jet coyote is solid since its a blown application with light counters for a cross plane so without weights they appear equal at face value. The flat plane engine balance is inherent end to end like putting 2 inline 4 together although its not as refined and without balance shafts there is vibration at the crank pins due to rotational balance. Since there isn't a weight comparison between the cranks the bulk weight comparison can't be made. Hellion boosted the engine to 800whp as did Lethal performance with more power on the downstroke there would be more force on the rods and crank pins. The mathematic equation to more power at low rpm vs. lower power at higher rpm I can't make without knowing the science and specific weights of the parts to make that calculation.

I can say in fact however AED tuning sets rpm 1k higher so thats 9250rpm. Some guys here on the forum with AED tune have reported accidentally going to 9k with no ill affect. However Shaun at AED is adamant not to rev it that hight since the power curve flattens out at 7500rpm and there's simply no power there your just dragging the engine along, he does it in case you miss a shift.

So the answer is yes you can go to 9k rpm however its unknown if that would be sustainable for any periods of time since there is no need due to the way the voodoo makes power and where it tops out at so nobody has tried or will.

Speaking of balancers, I noticed Innovators West has a dampner out for the GT350. Looks like a nice peace. Curious if anyone has tried it.

 

[EF300]

I was speaking with a shop here in central FL about adding boost to the GT 350, in my case specifically the hellion kit. This particular shop had installed 3 hellion kits and 5 if I remember correctly prochargers. They are running about 6 pounds of boost for about 650 RWHP on 93 octane with good results and no known failures.

Interestingly he did mention that one car they did had some vibration issues with the procharger. Apparently they took the engine out, lightened and re balanced the crank in addition to upgrading internals. This solved the vibration issue and since the motor is built up the owner now wants to take it over 1000 rwhp. This is not the hellion car from the power nation video.

Also it was mentioned that you could swap a 5.0 coyote crank into the Voodoo ( which according to him weighs much less) along with some internal upgrades reusing the stock block and the heads for huge power on boost compared to the FPC. This may seem like a sin to many but its an interesting proposition.

 

[Lexluther]

[MENTION=18082]EF300[/MENTION]
High power builds are 5.2 blocks and heads with the std cross plane cranks since there are forgings and billets of those cranks. You need to swap in different cams due to the firing order change but Ford performance has you covered and those cams are already available for purchase. But as you said sacrilege.

[MENTION=20322]Deranged1[/MENTION]
The GT balancers work on GT350's. On IW site part#818 says 5.0L-5.2L. The ATI is also on the cobra jet which spins 9k rpm with the added burden of a blower belt assembly. MMR had the ROMAC as a 5.0L-5.2L application. Apparently although the freq. of resonance are different they are still within the production range of the elastomers of the dampers.

Thats the only magic of dampers is they have rubber o-rings absorb the vibrations stock and aftermarket. The aftermarket is modular and rebuildable which doesn't matter to us in a street app what does is the wider freq. range the elastomers are able to handle. There are varying degrees of tuned engines NA, boost whatever so the aftermarket dampers are given a design to accept a wider range of resonance to cover all the possible levels of tune for that application.

The IW is unique as its clutch pack style with an internal inertia weight and possibly has the widest tuning range per the IW tech disclosure docs vs. rubber dampers (they are comparing ATI without calling them out). Really what they are saying is since IW damper is the lightest the internals have less to deal with and better absorb the crank vibration and resonance.

 

[Zitrosounds]

I was speaking with a shop here in central FL about adding boost to the GT 350, in my case specifically the hellion kit. This particular shop had installed 3 hellion kits and 5 if I remember correctly prochargers. They are running about 6 pounds of boost for about 650 RWHP on 93 octane with good results and no known failures.

Interestingly he did mention that one car they did had some vibration issues with the procharger. Apparently they took the engine out, lightened and re balanced the crank in addition to upgrading internals. This solved the vibration issue and since the motor is built up the owner now wants to take it over 1000 rwhp. This is not the hellion car from the power nation video.

Also it was mentioned that you could swap a 5.0 coyote crank into the Voodoo ( which according to him weighs much less) along with some internal upgrades reusing the stock block and the heads for huge power on boost compared to the FPC. This may seem like a sin to many but its an interesting proposition.

Pretty certain the Voodoo crank is lighter. Did i missunderstand your statement?

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