2017 ZL1 vs GT350R??

[chuckty101]

Yes, because LeMans race cars win solely based on their engine performance... You sound very bright.

FYI: the 6.2L's are small blocks lol all your comments have no substance or weight behind them.

400cid vs 215cid, sounds like a big engine vs little engine to me. LOL

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[J_Maher_AMG]

400cid vs 215cid, sounds like a big engine vs little engine to me. LOL

Yes because aero and suspension and fuel efficiency and drivers have nothing to do with winning LeMans, nope you're right it's all in the engine. Lol you're a sad troll.

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

The new LT1 is a very good engine, with great low-end torque, good fuel economy, and relatively low weight (although quite a bit heavier than past SBC's due to the direct injection and AFM hardware). Still is a relatively small engine as well.

However, it does have a torque curve suited for a daily driver or truck, rather than a sports car. It does fall flat up top, which I noticed at the track and which made me lean strongly towards the GT350, even though I knew the GT350 would likely be slower than the Vette on track. I really wanted the experience of the high-revving engine that pulls strongly to redline.

The SBC's also tend to have oiling issues under high G's at the track, making the dry sump an important feature. I've seen a couple lose engines at track days, although part of that is the large number of Corvettes that participate and which are very, very, fast.

If the C7 GS had used an updated version of the LS7, I very well may have traded the GT350 for that. As it stands, the LT1's character doesn't quite work for me, which is strange because I actually spend the vast majority of my driving at low RPM's where the LT1 is much superior to the Voodoo.

Voodoo swap into the C7GS would be about perfect for me.

The ZL1 will do better keeping torque at the high end due to the SC, but that's not a good option for a track car IMO. I'd be more likely to go with a 1LE than a ZL1. Really would like to see GM do a version of the LT1 without the AFM, using a slightly hotter cam in order to get the top end breathing improved. Maybe not quite an updated LS7, but just a hotter version of the LT1 - that would be interesting.

-T

In reality though it's just a deceptive power curve that makes it seem that way. LT1 makes peak power at 6000 rpm just before its 6500 rpm redline, peak torque at 4800 rpm. Problem is, is that it makes SO much torque down low, that you would expect it to pull even harder again near redline. In reality it's torque curve is flat across the board; if it's peak hp was at 5000 rpm then yes torque would be dropping off. But the fact it continues to build Hp almost to redline (closer to its redline than our voodoo does to our redline in fact) shows that it's not actually losing torque.

The voodoo has the "advantage" of having a more sports car powerband that has its greatest pulling power in the upper rpms; it's all a mental satisfaction thing, it makes you feel better to rev it out. If the voodoo made gobs more torque down low, we would have the same perception towards it as the LT1. But that is part of what is so enticing about the voodoo, having to work to get the best out of it, which overall makes the experience more special and feel more rewarding. Very similar to Porsches prior to the 991.2 when they were all NA.

Would love to see them cam the LT1 differently though as you mentioned; that engine is nowhere near its capacity and is so easy to mod. I'll never mod my R because of the rarity and originality, but if I bought a Stingray I would definitely be dropping a cam in there with full exhaust, they just take so well to mods.

 

[Kurac]

If the LS V8 engines are so great, how come the big block Corvettes got beat at LeMans by a 3.5L/215cid V6 engine. LOL

Because when you win and dominate your class at LeMans like Corvette has, you get rewarded with weight penalties and engine restrictions. Now that's fair.

 

[xt6wagon]

Meh, my f150 made peak HP above redline, didn't mean the 5.4 3v wasn't a truck motor. It just had soft valve springs and a artificial low redline for those mad mpg.

 

[chuckty101]

Because when you win and dominate your class at LeMans like Corvette has, you get rewarded with weight penalties and engine restrictions. Now that's fair.

The only reason the Corvette won in the pass at LeMans was because Ford hadn't been there in 50yrs. LOL

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

The only reason the Corvette won in the pass at LeMans was because Ford hadn't been there in 50yrs. LOL

Congrats I guess, that a race car based off of a $500,000 super car managed to beat a car based off of a $70,000 sports car :headbonk:

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

Meh, my f150 made peak HP above redline, didn't mean the 5.4 3v wasn't a truck motor. It just had soft valve springs and a artificial low redline for those mad mpg.

I understand what you're saying, but by the logic of some people on here, anything that has lots of low-end or if it doesnt rev past 7000rpms then it is automatically a truck motor. By that logic most people would consider the 454 big block a truck motor too :lol:

I look at it from a different perspective; it is a sports car engine with a great power band from idle to redline and no drop off in power. It just so happens that because of all that torque, it is also quite apt for truck applications. In my opinion, that is a benefit to the manufacturer obviously due to being able to amortize design and engineering costs over more vehicles. Obviously then it is not as "unique" per se especially when compared to our 5.2L, but it still a great engine.

 

[Voodooo]

I understand what you're saying, but by the logic of some people on here, anything that has lots of low-end or if it doesnt rev past 7000rpms then it is automatically a truck motor. By that logic most people would consider the 454 big block a truck motor too :lol:

I look at it from a different perspective; it is a sports car engine with a great power band from idle to redline and no drop off in power. It just so happens that because of all that torque, it is also quite apt for truck applications. In my opinion, that is a benefit to the manufacturer obviously due to being able to amortize design and engineering costs over more vehicles. Obviously then it is not as "unique" per se especially when compared to our 5.2L, but it still a great engine.

The 6.2 Is thought of a truck engine because GM uses them in trucks also and nothing special about it compared to the 5.2. Don't tell me some GM people think the same about the 5.0 because they do. They also think the 5.2 flat plane is nothing special because to them the flat plane crank is just a sales pitch. Until ford, nobody had a big inch flat plane crank engine and Ferrari said it couldn't be done. When it comes to mustangs vs camaros vs challengers ford has always been the displacement underdog and ford "ALWAYS" comes out on top. The ford make more power per displacement then the ls/lt engines and even the hellcat and scatpack. Before you disagree...

The gt500 with 5.8 @ 662 = 114.14 per liter
The gt350 with 5.2 @ 526 = 101.15 per liter
The 5.0 @ 435 @ = 87 per liter

The SS with 6.2 @ 455 = 73.39 per liter
The z28 with 7.0 @ 505 = 72.14 per liter

The hellcat 6.2 @ 707 = 114.03 per liter
The scat pack 6.4 @ 485 = 75.78 per liter

Take into account that weight, gearing, power band, tires, brakes all have a tremendous effect on the car as a whole. Put the exact same rubber on all the cars for each test "slicks for 1/4 mile" "R7 for road course" etc and let the timers begin. The results will change in a hurry.

Change the transmission gearing on the 5.2 gt350 and you'll see a lot lower 1/4 mile times if that's what your into. Everyone knows the gt350 is a track car but that doesn't me it couldn't be a 1/4 mile monster in a lighter better geared car. It certainly has the power and rpm.

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

The 6.2 Is thought of a truck engine because GM uses them in trucks also and nothing special about it compared to the 5.2. Don't tell me some GM people think the same about the 5.0 because they do. They also think the 5.2 flat plane is nothing special because to them the flat plane crank is just a sales pitch. Until ford, nobody had a big inch flat plane crank engine and Ferrari said it couldn't be done. When it comes to mustangs vs camaros vs challengers ford has always been the displacement underdog and ford "ALWAYS" comes out on top. The ford make more power per displacement then the ls/lt engines and even the hellcat and scatpack. Before you disagree...

The gt500 with 5.8 @ 662 = 114.14 per liter
The gt350 with 5.2 @ 526 = 101.15 per liter
The 5.0 @ 435 @ = 87 per liter

The SS with 6.2 @ 455 = 73.39 per liter
The z28 with 7.0 @ 505 = 72.14 per liter

The hellcat 6.2 @ 707 = 114.03 per liter
The scat pack 6.4 @ 485 = 75.78 per liter

Take into account that weight, gearing, power band, tires, brakes all have a tremendous effect on the car as a whole. Put the exact same rubber on all the cars for each test "slicks for 1/4 mile" "R7 for road course" etc and let the timers begin. The results will change in a hurry.

Change the transmission gearing on the 5.2 gt350 and you'll see a lot lower 1/4 mile times if that's what your into. Everyone knows the gt350 is a track car but that doesn't me it couldn't be a 1/4 mile monster in a lighter better geared car. It certainly has the power and rpm.

In the grand scheme of things, hp/L means literally nothing. Like I said, my CLA45 has 180 hp/L, does that make it automatically better? Sure hp/l is an indication as to the level of engineering prowess that allowed them to extract more power out of a smaller engine, but that doesn't automatically equate it to being a better engine

Different applications for different desires. My father owns a 15 Z51 Vette for example; he grew up driving 60's/70's muscle cars and wanted the same form of instant power and torque and just so happened to also fall in love with the new stingray bodystyle. I've always been a Porsche fan at heart, and the 350 resonates in me the way the GT3 does in regards to its purpose and type of powerband.

I also think that you are being presumptuous regarding what the GM engineers would think of the 5.2L. As an engineer myself, sure you are always going to have pride in the designs that you create or are responsible for yourself, but that doesn't mean you discredit or automatically think the work of others is insignificant or not as good. You are clearly a Ford guy through and through, whereas I have no brand loyalty or bias, have never owned 2 cars of the same brand.

Sure I believe that the Mustang has always been the better "modern day" interpretation of the classic muscle cars, but for the last number of years the Camaro has consistently been a better on track performer than the GT, consistently outhandling it and outgunning it in the 1/4. The challenger doesn't really care about any of that, its the only "muscle car" left IMO, whereas the Mustang and Camaro have become more focused on being modern day sports cars.

Way too many people on here are so focused on loving a single brand and disregarding others as inferior, just comes across as the exact opposite of what I believe to be a real car enthusiast. IMO anyone who becomes that brand loyal just misses out on lots of other great opportunities and great cars that they may never experience.

 

[Jumpman]

Enjoying this discussion. J, I'm not disagreeing with you but citing a turbo engine hp/l does not help make your point.

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

Enjoying this discussion. J, I'm not disagreeing with you but citing a turbo engine hp/l does not help make your point.

I completely agree, it is not a true comparison when considering FI vs NA engines. My only point was that the HP/L thing is overhyped and in reality a worthless metric. Nobody really cares about that ratio or ever buys a car based on it so comparing cars on it is pointless IMO. Its about the HP/LB ratio that matters

 

[Voodooo]

In the grand scheme of things, hp/L means literally nothing. Like I said, my CLA45 has 180 hp/L, does that make it automatically better? Sure hp/l is an indication as to the level of engineering prowess that allowed them to extract more power out of a smaller engine, but that doesn't automatically equate it to being a better engine

Different applications for different desires. My father owns a 15 Z51 Vette for example; he grew up driving 60's/70's muscle cars and wanted the same form of instant power and torque and just so happened to also fall in love with the new stingray bodystyle. I've always been a Porsche fan at heart, and the 350 resonates in me the way the GT3 does in regards to its purpose and type of powerband.

I also think that you are being presumptuous regarding what the GM engineers would think of the 5.2L. As an engineer myself, sure you are always going to have pride in the designs that you create or are responsible for yourself, but that doesn't mean you discredit or automatically think the work of others is insignificant or not as good. You are clearly a Ford guy through and through, whereas I have no brand loyalty or bias, have never owned 2 cars of the same brand.

Sure I believe that the Mustang has always been the better "modern day" interpretation of the classic muscle cars, but for the last number of years the Camaro has consistently been a better on track performer than the GT, consistently outhandling it and outgunning it in the 1/4. The challenger doesn't really care about any of that, its the only "muscle car" left IMO, whereas the Mustang and Camaro have become more focused on being modern day sports cars.

Way too many people on here are so focused on loving a single brand and disregarding others as inferior, just comes across as the exact opposite of what I believe to be a real car enthusiast. IMO anyone who becomes that brand loyal just misses out on lots of other great opportunities and great cars that they may never experience.

I guess you didn't read where I said weight, Gearing, etc also take effect.
My point is people assume the stupid theory of bigger is better.

 

[5.0 435]

There are great performance cars coming from Ford and GM. In the $50K and up market Ford has the mustang only. GM has the C7,Camaro and Cadillac . I've owned many Shelby's Corvettes, camaros and even a CTS-V. I don't have a favorite because they keep changing. I grew up in the 60's but this is the best performance car market ever. Why limit yourself to one make only ?

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

I guess you didn't read where I said weight, Gearing, etc also take effect.
My point is people assume the stupid theory of bigger is better.

I absolutely read your statements regarding the other metrics, which is precisely why I only mentioned about the hp/l making a better motor.

The vast majority of car people don't always consider larger displacement as automatically being better, at least in my experience with everyone I've come into contact with. The number of liters to most people, myself included, mean absolutely nothing. I wouldn't care if the Voodoo was 4.0L, 5.2L, or 5.8L, I love it because of its sound and character.

Anyone who purely thinks of engine size honestly doesn't know anything about cars and how there is more than one metric (i.e size) that makes a sports car, like you mentioned, weight, gearing, aero, etc., so in all honesty those people aren't worth worrying about :lol:

My primary point was that many people limit themselves (relatively speaking) because of brand loyalty or brand hate, and these people discredit other rivals to make themselves feel better about their own purchase decision from my perspective.

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