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GT350 vs Camaro 1LE

cosmo

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I have seen 120 for the 350 and I have seen 118 for the SS. If the HP is 60+ higher and he met torque is higher, shouldn't the 350's et be much better? On paper it shouldn't be close. And it is.
Then the GT's net torque is supposedly higher, and the HP is very close, but the Camaro beats it very easily. I just don't understand how?
Aero and tire resistance are effectively "power robbers". Weight down the strip really doesn't do too much, weight is mainly at the launch.

Look at the gaps between gears. The Mustang loses quite a bit between shifts, whereas the Camaro doesn't. While the Mustang and Camaro have sections where they are line for line nearly, the gaps between 1st and 2nd and 2nd and 3rd on the Mustang graph are where the Camaro wins.
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Norm Peterson

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Aero and tire resistance are effectively "power robbers". Weight down the strip really doesn't do too much, weight is mainly at the launch.

Look at the gaps between gears. The Mustang loses quite a bit between shifts, whereas the Camaro doesn't. While the Mustang and Camaro have sections where they are line for line nearly, the gaps between 1st and 2nd and 2nd and 3rd on the Mustang graph are where the Camaro wins.
Which Mustang line are you looking at? The green GT line or the red one for the GT350?


Norm
 

ZaneWayne

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ET is traction dependent, trap MPH is a better indication of relative power levels getting put to the ground.

Also, 118 is quite high for the SS, haven't more runs been seen in the 113-115 range?
Yes 114ish is the average.
 

Sasuketr

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No, you have a few things mixed up.

lbf is force, not energy. Energy has the same units as torque (i.e. ft-lbs) but they are not equivalent and cannot be interchanged. Using lbf and the simple F=ma equation, you can find the acceleration of the vehicle.
Work is energy and you can multiply distance with force to get it but foot pound force ft lbf is also energy and unit of torque! Torque is not lbf it is lb ft or lbf ft! You have to account the distance in torque the rotational arm distance. There is nothing mixing here lol
 

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cosmo

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Work is energy and you can multiply distance with force to get it but foot pound force ft lbf is also energy! Torque is not lbf it is lb ft or lbf ft! You have to account the distance in torque the rotational arm distance. There is nothing mixing here lol
Read the y axis description. Gear ratios have been multiplied through, and the torque has been reduced by the lever arm of the radius of the tire. This is net force to the ground. I should revise it to net force to avoid confusion I guess.
 

Sasuketr

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Read the y axis description. Gear ratios have been multiplied through, and the torque has been reduced by the lever arm of the radius of the tire. This is net force to the ground. I should revise it to net force to avoid confusion I guess.
That would be great cause i looked at the unit plus the values which were in thousands and threw me off but the description is accurate!
 

nastang87xx

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Torque is a REPRESENTATION of a force applied in a tangential cross section. Do not let that fool you: force is still force. Power is work done over time which is force applied from point to point. As soon as transmissions and rear diffs get involved, now you have to apply mechanical advantage. N joy. I'm too lazy to do math right now.
 

Norm Peterson

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Aero and tire resistance are effectively "power robbers". Weight down the strip really doesn't do too much, weight is mainly at the launch.
I disagree. Take the same car and add 5% to its weight and the acceleration in the upper gears used will still drop by about that same 5%. If you were shooting for a new personal best at the strip, would you let your 175 lb buddy sit right seat if the track would even let you do this?


Look at the gaps between gears. The Mustang loses quite a bit between shifts, whereas the Camaro doesn't. While the Mustang and Camaro have sections where they are line for line nearly, the gaps between 1st and 2nd and 2nd and 3rd on the Mustang graph are where the Camaro wins.
You're looking at the green line, too. Actually, the MT82 and the TR3160 both appear to be more road course oriented, as the gears that are mainly used in that activity (3, 4, and 5) are spaced pretty close. Maybe almost too close. What happens between 1 and 2 has no meaning at a HPDE track day, and the rpm drop in the 2-3 shift isn't going to be of much importance until you're time trialing on a track with a slow enough corner for 2nd to be of practical benefit.

There's more.


Read the y axis description. Gear ratios have been multiplied through, and the torque has been reduced by the lever arm of the radius of the tire. This is net force to the ground. I should revise it to net force to avoid confusion I guess.
You might also draw a line across at about 2750 lbs, where any force above that is not accessible unless you're on a prepped dragstrip. Quick and dirty numbers suggest that 0.7g is about the best a car with 50/50 weight distribution is capable of on street tires on good street pavement.


Norm
 

cosmo

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I disagree. Take the same car and add 5% to its weight and the acceleration in the upper gears used will still drop by about that same 5%. If you were shooting for a new personal best at the strip, would you let your 175 lb buddy sit right seat if the track would even let you do this?
True, but the rate at which the aero resistance climbs with regards to MPH makes it the problem child moreso at the track than weight going down the strip. Of course lower weight is better, but taping off those massive brake ducts and removing that spoiler on the track pack or R would do better than removing 100 lbs I'd bet.

You're looking at the green line, too. Actually, the MT82 and the TR3160 both appear to be more road course oriented, as the gears that are mainly used in that activity (3, 4, and 5) are spaced pretty close. Maybe almost too close. What happens between 1 and 2 has no meaning at a HPDE track day, and the rpm drop in the 2-3 shift isn't going to be of much importance until you're time trialing on a track with a slow enough corner for 2nd to be of practical benefit.

There's more.
Depends on the track. The MT82 I would argue is spaced a little bit too much, but that's a different discussion. I prefer the more ratios of the Camaro and 350's transmissions for road course.

You might also draw a line across at about 2750 lbs, where any force above that is not accessible unless you're on a prepped dragstrip. Quick and dirty numbers suggest that 0.7g is about the best a car with 50/50 weight distribution is capable of on street tires on good street pavement.


Norm
I disagree. Good, and I mean good, street pavement should be good for up to 1.0g I'd bet with a good high performance tire. 0.7g would be more for all seasons. I've pulled 0.78g on my Pirelli P-Zeros on my Boss and that was just my messing around. Once it warms up, I'll hafta test it again.
 

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krt22

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I can't help it if my first-cut comparison bothers you. It wouldn't have made me feel any different if it'd gone the other way, nor are off-topic comments useful from a technical point of view.

Feel free to suggest a better approach to comparing these two engines, given only displacement, peak HP and peak torque. Entire torque curves would be better, but they weren't provided for me to work with.


Norm
There is no way to compare theoretical outputs based on displacement changes. There are far too many factors that drive total out put (displacement, intake and manifold design, valve size, cam lift/duration profiles, head design, exhaust design, etc). If I were to say a 7L stroker kit for the voodoo would result in 700hp+ people wouldnt take me seriously.

Given that these are turbo-charged it gets even more complicated. You can't just make the "at equal boost" statement either since not all boost is created equal. Once you factor in turbine/compressor design, 20psi from two different turbo setups can be in radically regimes.

:cheers:
 
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Norm Peterson

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I disagree. Good, and I mean good, street pavement should be good for up to 1.0g I'd bet with a good high performance tire. 0.7g would be more for all seasons. I've pulled 0.78g on my Pirelli P-Zeros on my Boss and that was just my messing around. Once it warms up, I'll hafta test it again.
You're forgetting that these cars are RWD . . .

I did some sanity checking with 50/50. a 21" CG height, 105" wheelbase (makes the load transfer math easier), and 1.1g tire grip based on braking performances below 110 feet from 60 mph.


Norm
 

Norm Peterson

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There is no way to compare theoretical outputs based on displacement changes. There are far too many factors that drive total out put (displacement, intake and manifold design, valve size, cam lift/duration profiles, head design, exhaust design, etc). If I were to say a 7L stroker kit for the voodoo would result in 700hp+ people wouldnt take me seriously.

Once you factor in that these are turbo-charged it gets even more complicated. You can't just make the "at equal boost" statement either since not all boost is created equal. Once you factor in turbine/compressor design, 20psi from two different turbo setups can be in radically regimes.

:cheers:
Like I said, I'm open to a better approach.

I'm a little disappointed at the 2.3's relatively poorer showing in the matter of specific torque . . . especially with the 2.3 being an undersquare design (87.55 mm bore x 94 mm stroke) while the 2.0T is square at 86 x 86, where I'd have expected the reverse . . .


Norm
 

krt22

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That could very easily be the turbo sizing and/or how conservative the factory tune is. You can increase peak torque and spool up with a smaller turbo at the expense of top end power, or give up a little low end with a larger turbo that isnt falling out of its efficiency range at the top of the rev range.

Factory tuning plays a factor as well, you can push the turbo harder for more peak torque, but generate more heat and can impact longevity. Given how much power/tq the ecoboost is making in the aftermarket, it leads me to believe ford left a lot on the table.
 

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The chart is showing accelerative force applied by the tire to the road at the contact patch (since the units are lbf and the tire radius is taken into account).

Once could add a chart where those values are divided by the vehicle's mass so that instead of showing force they show potential acceleration (I say potential because things like traction could be a limiting factor in certain gears).

-T
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