Sponsored

HPDE oil weight

mnmike59

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2016
Threads
20
Messages
284
Reaction score
74
Location
2 hours South of BIR
Vehicle(s)
2016 Mustang GT PP
I've just read through this entire thread, and the thing that stands out in my mind is that nobody has even attempted to correlate viscosity index to absolute viscosity. They aren't the same thing, as there's a high dependence on temperature.

MC in 5W20 may well be 'adequate' for relatively low oil temperatures and "normal street driving" that presumably implies easier driving than Mustang GT's are prone to seeing. 'Adequate' means that the oil will measure acceptably close to what the absolute viscosity of 20-weight oil is at whatever that DD temperature is, which is apparently acceptable to Ford even from the warranty point of view.

When you take that same car out on the track for 20 minutes or more, your oil will run considerably warmer, and will be thinner in absolute terms as a result. But the engine still needs at least the same amount of protection as it did at the DD temperature with 20-weight, meaning that you do need to look at oils with bigger hot numbers.

There will be a temperature above that DD oil temperature where the absolute viscosity of (for example) 30-weight will be equal to 20-weight at the DD temperature. If that happens to fall about where your track temperatures are, then you'd need to step up at least to 5W30. My own suggestion would be to make the step to full-synthetic at the same time.

Some engineer, ex-Ford with knowledge of this topic beyond what I think is present here, first name Scott (IIRC), wouldn't run 5W20 at least in semi-syn in any modular motor. Period.


Norm
This makes sense to me Norm, Well said. Now I wonder if a heavier viscosity has an equal ability, better or worse to remove heat?
Sponsored

 

Norm Peterson

corner barstool sitter
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Threads
11
Messages
9,011
Reaction score
4,722
Location
On a corner barstool not too far from I-95
First Name
Norm
Vehicle(s)
'08 GT #85, '19 WRX
This makes sense to me Norm, Well said. Now I wonder if a heavier viscosity has an equal ability, better or worse to remove heat?
Differences in additive content aside, I'd have to assume that the heat removal ability of a heavier viscosity index would at least equal that of the lower VI oil . . . as long as the temperatures were such that the absolute viscosities were matched up.

I couldn't quickly find data for 20-weight, but it would be the same sort of thing that happens going from 0W30 to 5W40 in the data that I could find, where the dynamic viscosity, kinematic viscosity, and even density are all very close matches when you compare the 0W30 at 90°C (where it could be a little less than a "30") with the 5W40 at 100°C (where it'd specifically meet "40" requirements).

http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/engine-oil/


Flows vs pressures would be the same, and since the 'heavier' oil would be operating at the higher temperature, acquiring and rejecting heat across greater temperature differences translates to faster heat flow per unit time - more of it removed into the oil from the "heat source" and again out of it (ultimately into the atmosphere as an "infinite heat sink").


Norm
 
Last edited:

mustang_guy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2015
Threads
12
Messages
5,721
Reaction score
1,324
Location
United States
Vehicle(s)
it has an engine!
Granted I don't build/rebuild engines for living, but I feel like there's something missing here...
You're definitely welcome to that opinion. But id like to ask what i have to gain from omissions? Ive simply been a master tech for over 3 decades at a few brand (ford being one of them) dealerships. Im an extreme car enthusiast by passion as well, ive also had 6 mustangs (among other brand chassis)im not new to these things. Infact (if it matters which i doubt) one of every chassis since the foxbody with the exception of 2 foxbodies. I have zero benefits from misleading anyone nor do i have invested stock in any oil companies. Im 100% honest on what i post here. If i dont know ill say so, im not afraid to share that. I typically try to never share any misinformation because i hate that. I try not to post on things i dont know anything about. If i do post and i am unsure i sure wouldnt try to tout myself like i am. I am on occasion misinformed but i pride myself and work very hard not to be. Take from that what you will...or wont. :ford:
 

HBMike

Well-Known Member
Gold Sponsor
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Threads
14
Messages
71
Reaction score
7
Location
Irvine
First Name
Mike
Vehicle(s)
2015 Mustang GT
I could be wrong, but [MENTION=9290]HBMike[/MENTION] isn't that what you run?
Yea I run rotella t6, 5w40. pretty awesome oil for the price. i change it every two competitions or 5000 miles which ever comes first
 

Sponsored

Stuntman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Threads
5
Messages
1,448
Reaction score
488
Location
SoCal
Vehicle(s)
many
Differences in additive content aside, I'd have to assume that the heat removal ability of a heavier viscosity index would at least equal that of the lower VI oil . . . as long as the temperatures were such that the absolute viscosities were matched up.

I couldn't quickly find data for 20-weight, but it would be the same sort of thing that happens going from 0W30 to 5W40 in the data that I could find, where the dynamic viscosity, kinematic viscosity, and even density are all very close matches when you compare the 0W30 at 90°C (where it could be a little less than a "30") with the 5W40 at 100°C (where it'd specifically meet "40" requirements).

http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/engine-oil/


Flows vs pressures would be the same, and since the 'heavier' oil would be operating at the higher temperature, acquiring and rejecting heat across greater temperature differences translates to faster heat flow per unit time - more of it removed into the oil from the "heat source" and again out of it (ultimately into the atmosphere as an "infinite heat sink").

Norm
Correct. Thinner oil transfers heat quicker than thicker oil. If a cars oil cooling is designed properly for track use, a thinner oil can be used and cool more efficiently than thicker oil, but as you said, thicker oil is needed when oil temps go beyond normal operating temperatures and thins out.

FWIW, high performance Ford's like the GT350 & the new GT require 5W50. I'm not sure I would track a Mustang GT aggressively with 0W20.
 

steveespo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2016
Threads
16
Messages
262
Reaction score
137
Location
New York
Vehicle(s)
2018 Mustang GT PPL2, 2017 F-150 XLT SCREW
Ford Performance Engine development Engineers recommend 5W50 full synthetic for track use. No you will not see this published because Ford does not list it in the Owners Manual for all Coyotes.Specific cars do list it, Shelbys, Boss 302s and certain Track Pack cars 2013-14. Our S550 5.0s do not but the bearings will be much better protected at the high temperatures and loads on track. For cooler times like late fall and early spring I run Porsche grade 0W40 oils. My 2011 Coyote has over 13000 track miles on it, never opened up except for Moroso pan and Boss valve springs at 10000 track miles. 2016 Coyote has 1750 track miles on it currently.
Steve
 

FreeRein

FreeRein
Joined
Jun 9, 2016
Threads
2
Messages
51
Reaction score
96
Location
Brisbane
Vehicle(s)
M17 Mustang GT 6MT Coupe
Oil Weight

In Australia, forum members here report that their dealers are using 5-30 weight oil as per specific Ford instructions. Maybe as we have a hot climate.
 

09jsw

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Threads
44
Messages
1,298
Reaction score
280
Location
East coast
Vehicle(s)
2015 Guard PP GT
In Australia, forum members here report that their dealers are using 5-30 weight oil as per specific Ford instructions. Maybe as we have a hot climate.
The 5w20 in the US has a lot to do with fuel mileage and CAFE standards.
Back in 2001 when I was with ford they made us use 5w20 in everything all the sudden. I'm guessing the regulations are not the same out there.
 

Magnificent Bastard

Active Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2017
Threads
0
Messages
39
Reaction score
11
Location
Chicago, IL
Vehicle(s)
So many...
Weight adds protection but also heat, unless your engine is specifically designed with journals to support the weight. My Boss 302 has the oil journals to support 50 weight under any conditions, but regular Coyotes don't.

Having said that - I always used Redline Race Oils and changed after every event on all my cars, mainly because it's a true base 5 synthetic and resists well the kind of shear you get under race conditions. The 50 weight has always been great in the Boss and the SPEC Porsche, and I use 30 weight for track use in my 2010 Mustang and my Miata.

Some cars handle higher weights better than others due to design. Some oils shear faster, and thus you artificially increase starting track weight to account for this. My advice - if you do not know for sure, use a quality group 5 synthetic race oil and don't go too far above maximum recommended weight. And never let track oil sit - change it right after an event.
 

Sponsored

mustang_guy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2015
Threads
12
Messages
5,721
Reaction score
1,324
Location
United States
Vehicle(s)
it has an engine!
Weight adds protection but also heat, unless your engine is specifically designed with journals to support the weight. My Boss 302 has the oil journals to support 50 weight under any conditions, but regular Coyotes don't.

Having said that - I always used Redline Race Oils and changed after every event on all my cars, mainly because it's a true base 5 synthetic and resists well the kind of shear you get under race conditions. The 50 weight has always been great in the Boss and the SPEC Porsche, and I use 30 weight for track use in my 2010 Mustang and my Miata.

Some cars handle higher weights better than others due to design. Some oils shear faster, and thus you artificially increase starting track weight to account for this. My advice - if you do not know for sure, use a quality group 5 synthetic race oil and don't go too far above maximum recommended weight. And never let track oil sit - change it right after an event.
The s550 coyote is almost exactly a roadrunner engine. Bigger intake cam than the roadrunner, roadrunner exhaust cam, heads cast for larger valves so they weren't cnc, roadrunner springs/retainers etc. Different timing chain and balancer though and no boss manifold. Same rods and bearings but not forged pistons.
 

Magnificent Bastard

Active Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2017
Threads
0
Messages
39
Reaction score
11
Location
Chicago, IL
Vehicle(s)
So many...
The s550 coyote is almost exactly a roadrunner engine. Bigger intake cam than the roadrunner, roadrunner exhaust cam, heads cast for larger valves so they weren't cnc, roadrunner springs/retainers etc. Different timing chain and balancer though and no boss manifold. Same rods and bearings but not forged pistons.
Right - so, part of the story, but not all. What I don't know is the oil journaling on these 15+ motors, ands that's a key factor. Could I recommend the same oil I run in the Boss? I don't know. But I place more faith in true synth race oil blends and additives than I do in pure weight. After all, if the oil can't flow as designed, not much else really matters, does it?
 

mustang_guy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2015
Threads
12
Messages
5,721
Reaction score
1,324
Location
United States
Vehicle(s)
it has an engine!
Right - so, part of the story, but not all. What I don't know is the oil journaling on these 15+ motors, ands that's a key factor. Could I recommend the same oil I run in the Boss? I don't know. But I place more faith in true synth race oil blends and additives than I do in pure weight. After all, if the oil can't flow as designed, not much else really matters, does it?
I can agree with you. I almost forgot we use a boss crank. From what ive heard from big builders ive discussed my own build with this uses the same tolerance in bearings and journaling as the roadrunner
 

Magnificent Bastard

Active Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2017
Threads
0
Messages
39
Reaction score
11
Location
Chicago, IL
Vehicle(s)
So many...
I can agree with you. I almost forgot we use a boss crank. From what ive heard from big builders ive discussed my own build with this uses the same tolerance in bearings and journaling as the roadrunner
Good deal - if you are working with builders who can speak to that, you know more than I do about the 15+ Coyotes. If the journaling matches, then there is no good reason not to run 50 weight on the track with these cars.

Mileage aside, probably not a bad idea to think heavier for street use, in light of that information.

Wonder if anyone here has good Blackstone results for regular street use on these engines?
 
OP
OP

TNcoupe

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2014
Threads
75
Messages
1,314
Reaction score
344
Location
Decatur, TN
First Name
Josh
Vehicle(s)
2015 GT PP
Kicking around switching to 5w30. About time to change the oil out in my new ST1 Focus and it calls for 5w30. Would be nice for both of em to use the same oil. Ive been using Driven FR20 in the Mustang but would switch to Driven 5w30. Any issues with this for track and street duty?
Sponsored

 
 




Top