Whipple Tune vs. Aftermarket Tune

[engineermike]

@Socal Stangman fuel economy depends drastically on driving context. On my work commute, usually going wot once or twice per 15 miles, mix of stop n go and highway driving, I’m getting 20 mpg on gasoline and 16 mpg on e85.

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[Angrey]

Outside of someone like Mike who's much more bespoke, most of the aftermarket tunes aren't going to address any or most of the things Mike outlined.

If Mike isn't willing to sell his knowledge and services, then my original post stands. When comparing the Whipple calibration against typical big name aftermarket tuning, on 93 you're not going to see a major improvement or affect other than adding slightly more risk to achieve a small bump in power or torque and the possibility that some of the aftermarket tuners might have better strategies for automatic trans shifting.

Again, if you're on 93, it's not worth the brain damage or cost. If you're simply doing it for economy, do the break even analysis. Let's say generously you bump from 16 to 18 mpg. That's an additional 2 miles per gallon, meaning for a $1000 tune effort, you'd need to run

16/18 = .888, meaning you get an 11.111% bump in efficiency. In order to equal your $1000 investment, you'll need to run approximately 9,000 gallons of fuel through your car. 9,000 gallons of fuel (at the new 18 mpg) is 162,162 miles.

Basically, if you're just doing it for economy, the math isn't mathing very well. Just to get the break even to less than 50,000 miles (meaning you actually benefit on the back side of that number) you'd need the economy jump to be almost 6.5 miles per gallon.

So EVEN IF you jumped 6.5 mpg (highly unlikely) you're not going to break even until you reach 50,000 miles more and then you'll start slowly accruing positive value.

 

[Socal Stangman]

Lot of good info here. Let me also say this. Im not in any way bashing the Whipple tune, it seems to run just fine. You all know how it is here in the Mustang community, the Kool Aid starts to get passed around. As soon as I installed it the first thing people are telling me is to get a new tune. Im not a Kool Said drinker so I need to know why before I plink down 1000+ dollars because someone told me "I have to"...I hate that shit and have been down that road before. One other thing about the Whipple tune, it runs like a MF'er. This car pulls like a freight train and wants to keep going. I cant say one bad thing about it when Im driving, it's a beast. Im just one of those people that wants to know things for the sake of knowledge and making sure I spend my time, money and effort in the right place, not just because someone told me I have to do it...

 

[robvas]

The Whipple (or any manufacturer provided/included tune) tune leaves a lot on the table. Been proved over and over..

A custom tune doesn't have to worry about warranty, emissions, blah blah

From what people are saying about the S650 tunes there might not be as much to gain though.

 

[HKusp]

Lot of good info here. Let me also say this. Im not in any way bashing the Whipple tune, it seems to run just fine. You all know how it is here in the Mustang community, the Kool Aid starts to get passed around. As soon as I installed it the first thing people are telling me is to get a new tune. Im not a Kool Said drinker so I need to know why before I plink down 1000+ dollars because someone told me "I have to"...I hate that shit and have been down that road before. One other thing about the Whipple tune, it runs like a MF'er. This car pulls like a freight train and wants to keep going. I cant say one bad thing about it when Im driving, it's a beast. Im just one of those people that wants to know things for the sake of knowledge and making sure I spend my time, money and effort in the right place, not just because someone told me I have to do it...

If you THINK that Whipple tune pulls like a freight train, you should drive a car with a good tune like Wengerd. Mine's not about miles per gallon, it's about SMILES per gallon. Your emphasis may be different than mine though.

Just sayin'

 

[Socal Stangman]

If you THINK that Whipple tune pulls like a freight train, you should drive a car with a good tune like Wengerd. Mine's not about miles per gallon, it's about SMILES per gallon. Your emphasis may be different than mine though.

Just sayin'

Im not about miles per gallon either. Im just really shocked at how bad it really got. I mean, I expected to loose some mileage, especially when I drove it hard, but I never expected to loose 6-7 MPG's, even under normal driving conditions.

 

[HKusp]

I hear you, and that wasn't a critique of you. I want to have a balance, but I am heavy foited and realize that all this fun comes at a price. My car makes me smile when I don't want to throw things at it.

 

[Socal Stangman]

I hear you, and that wasn't a critique of you. I want to have a balance, but I am heavy foited and realize that all this fun comes at a price. My car makes me smile when I don't want to throw things at it.

I feel the same way. I love driving my car. This might sound silly, but I look forward to it. I have a 30+ mile drive everyday and I look forward to it. Its my time to turn off my brain and just enjoy what one of the things I work for...and I enjoy it immensely

 

[HKusp]

It doesn't sound silly at all. I have a 17 mile commute one way and I come home for lunch, so 68 miles 3 days a week at least. I look for reasons to drive my car. I enjoy it so much. It was just down for 9 months and 6 days. Notice I didn't just say 9 months? I was miserable while it was down.

 

[Frank]

I'm about to do something, I've had the Whipple tune sense installing the charger four years ago. Last year I was on a fairly long trip and went to about 75 percent throttle but felt something was wrong. I got almost home and got the cat cel code. Pulled the drivers side and it was melted. I replaced but checked passenger and it was on its way also.
I already had Mac pipes and installed them. So I with that I'm ready to try a tune good or bad I'll see.

 

[ShadowPP2]

I just recently upgraded from the Whipple Stage 1 kit and factory Whipple tune to a Whipple Stage 2 upgrade kit (larger fuel pump, larger TB, etc) with a Lund 93 tune and its a noticeable difference on the butt dyno. Since both were done at the same time I can't say how much gain was due to the upgrade versus the Whipple-to-Lund tune but there are video's on you tube from PBD and Brenspeed showing dyno gains just from their tune over the Whipple tune. It would make sense that the Whipple tunes are more on the conservative side like others have stated.

Hoping to schedule some dyno time soon to compare my old Stage 1 numbers to new Stage 2 and Lund tune numbers. Not a numbers guy but can't help but be curious.

 

[Angrey]

I just recently upgraded from the Whipple Stage 1 kit and factory Whipple tune to a Whipple Stage 2 upgrade kit (larger fuel pump, larger TB, etc) with a Lund 93 tune and its a noticeable difference on the butt dyno. Since both were done at the same time I can't say how much gain was due to the upgrade versus the Whipple-to-Lund tune but there are video's on you tube from PBD and Brenspeed showing dyno gains just from their tune over the Whipple tune. It would make sense that the Whipple tunes are more on the conservative side like others have stated.

Hoping to schedule some dyno time soon to compare my old Stage 1 numbers to new Stage 2 and Lund tune numbers. Not a numbers guy but can't help but be curious.

Those tuners don't warranty the motor. And everyone's a hero on a dyno where the tuner can monitor and log knock activity and AFR. In the real world, 93 isn't very consistent. In the real world, the IAT's aren't nice and cool on a dyno. In the real world, people mash the gas with 100-500 lbs of passengers in the car, adding to the drivetrain loading. In the real world, people accelerate uphill.

The reason that OEMs (Like Ford with the FRPP and Roush blowers) and whipple add some conservation is that the real world is less controlled and a number of factors can all contribute to harsh conditions inside the combustion chamber.

Now, can you run an after market tune on 93 and be okay? Certainly, but it comes with some asterisks. It assumes quality fuel. It assumes you're not going to back to back to back flog the car while it's heat soaked. It assumes you're not going to lug the motor on hot days uphill in high gear and low rpm.

If you had to warrant the motor, you'd back it down too. It's the difference between race and daily abuse. A single cold pass, off the trailer with known quality fuel out of a drum is way different than Ricky Roughnuts on his third consecutive rip on a hot August night on sketchy Costco fuel and his 250 lb sister is riding shotgun so the motor sees maximum loading.

If you gain any knowledge from this forum or others, it's that trying to find the edge of performance on pump gasoline and 12:1 compression leads to frowny face.

 

[ShadowPP2]

Those tuners don't warranty the motor. And everyone's a hero on a dyno where the tuner can monitor and log knock activity and AFR. In the real world, 93 isn't very consistent. In the real world, the IAT's aren't nice and cool on a dyno. In the real world, people mash the gas with 100-500 lbs of passengers in the car, adding to the drivetrain loading. In the real world, people accelerate uphill.

The reason that OEMs (Like Ford with the FRPP and Roush blowers) and whipple add some conservation is that the real world is less controlled and a number of factors can all contribute to harsh conditions inside the combustion chamber.

Now, can you run an after market tune on 93 and be okay? Certainly, but it comes with some asterisks. It assumes quality fuel. It assumes you're not going to back to back to back flog the car while it's heat soaked. It assumes you're not going to lug the motor on hot days uphill in high gear and low rpm.

If you had to warrant the motor, you'd back it down too. It's the difference between race and daily abuse. A single cold pass, off the trailer with known quality fuel out of a drum is way different than Ricky Roughnuts on his third consecutive rip on a hot August night on sketchy Costco fuel and his 250 lb sister is riding shotgun so the motor sees maximum loading.

If you gain any knowledge from this forum or others, it's that trying to find the edge of performance on pump gasoline and 12:1 compression leads to frowny face.

Yep, I get why Whipple/Roush tune conservative and don't blame them at all. Big difference between having to create a one-size-fits-all tune for the mass market with a warranty versus a more individual tune getting the most you can based on your own specific application, mods, etc. But I still think the after-market tuners do a really good job of showing improved gains over the factory guys without compromising customers vehicles, even with the added variables.


Funny enough, I originally chose the Stage 1 Whipple and tune to get the warranty but they told me the insurance company they were using for that warranty had stopped writing policies and they were looking for another to take their place. Never did get that warranty so off to Stage 2 I went.

 

[2019GT]

I had a custom 93 dyno tune which was built on top of the base Whipple calibration. However, the tuner couldn't for whatever reason get my shift points set to even 7000. So it was short shifting ever gear.

That led me to go with a Lund 93 tune which I learned the hard way for my situation required a BAP and relocating the IAT sensor since Lund doesn't build on top of the Whipple calibration. The Lund tune was done via remote dyno tune session and I was happier with the results at the end of the day. The shift points are where they should be, well into the 7000s.

On the custom 93 dyno, I put down about 680whp, DynoJet STD

On the Lund 93 dyno, I put down 610whp (680whp w/ Octane Booster), Mustang STD.

Yeah, maybe if my local tuner was able to get my shift points right I'd have been just as happy, I dunno. But when we dynoed the Lund tune and pulled the data logs, we all looked at the data and the Lund tune w/ Octane Booster was dialed in real nice.

Edit -- also just to add another interesting observation.

The way AdvanceTrac / stability control works off the Whipple calibration and Lund Calibration are totally different. With the Whipple Calibration, you can do a 60-130 with TC off, AdvanceTrac on and the throttle is only pulled back maybe half way. But on the Lund Tune, AdvanceTrac aggressively kicks in and throttle is nearly slammed shut. I'd have to check my datalogs to get the raw numbers again, but the only way to really enjoy the Lund Tune is with AdvanceTrac OFF completely. You can get away with AT ON with the Whipple cal for a smaller penalty in rolls.

 

[allicedout]

The only reasons to change to a different tune would be if you're unsatisfied with the Whipple cal or you're planning on going to E85 (or some sorta permanent fuel additive for pump gas) and/or you want to go catless.

An aftermarket tune can squeeze out a little more power, but on 93, it's not really worth the risk.

If you're staying on 93 and not ditching your cats, then there's really low value benefit of going aftermarket. Sure they can wring out a little more power and torque but it comes at added risk to the motor.

Not trying to hijack the thread but I'm going catless on my 2021 with an Edelbrock E-Force supercharger and Lund tells me removing the cats doesn't require any change in tune, if anything it's only to turn off the rear O2 sensors which most of them refuse to do now with new EPA laws. I'm going to use O2 extenders which will reduce flow to the sensor and make it think the cats are still there. Have I been mislead or missing something? Thanks.

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