Tuning Decisions

[Livernois Motorsports]

As foghat said, I'd be much, much more comfortable with a company new to Mustangs but with an extensive turbo background than an expert on Mustangs with limited turbo knowledge.

Good thing we are an expert on both

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[foghat]

There is one company in this thread that has been tuning EcoBoost Mustangs for the last 5 years and is very well known in the Mustang/domestic community versus a company that has been working on EcoBoost vehicles for the last couple of years.

Which do you think id go with?

That is not what you said/implied in the post I quoted - as I said, whether they are new to the mustang scene or not is irrelevant since this is the first year you can get eb in a mustang.

Honestly, when we are talking 5 years vs. 3 years, I'm not sure that makes huge difference. And do you really believe their 14 or so years of experience tuning a number of different turbo engines does not come into play?

If you like Livernois or one of the others better, great. But why make a post like you did? And claim, no less, you aren't trying to start anything.

I'm not saying cobb is better than the others or vice versa, I just do not get the apparent disdain towards cobb in this forum. There are offering features and a hardware/software combination that is brilliant.

Bottom line is cobb's presence here is nothing but good for the platform.

Personally, I believe that once you get to a place where you are happyish with your mods, you should get a protune. And I'd strongly be considering buying whatever tune comes with the hardware that a protuner in my area can work with or one that lets me datalog so I can get a pro etune.

 

[foghat]

Good thing we are an expert on both

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

And I'd strongly be considering buying whatever tune comes with the hardware that a protuner in my area can work with or one that lets me datalog so I can get a pro etune.

This is one area that I cannot stress the importance of being careful on. Of course, I am biased and going to suggest using us, but one item that people need to be extremely careful is that these cars are not something that you can just tune by changing a few tables.

The common misconception in the industry is that somehow an in person tuning session will be superior to a mail order tune. This couldn't be further from the truth as I am sure many of you have seen poor reviews on custom tunes on even basic builds. The EcoBoost takes a completely different mindset for tuning than ANYTHING else out there. Just because someone paid to have software doesn't mean they know anything about it.

 

[foghat]

This is one area that I cannot stress the importance of being careful on. Of course, I am biased and going to suggest using us, but one item that people need to be extremely careful is that these cars are not something that you can just tune by changing a few tables.

The common misconception in the industry is that somehow an in person tuning session will be superior to a mail order tune. This couldn't be further from the truth as I am sure many of you have seen poor reviews on custom tunes on even basic builds. The EcoBoost takes a completely different mindset for tuning than ANYTHING else out there. Just because someone paid to have software doesn't mean they know anything about it.

I don't necessarily believe in person is better than mail order (hence my comment about a pro etune). And, of course, you need to do your due diligence on your local tuner.

In fact, on my 135i I had a 'mail order' etune. But this was created by logging and tune map parameters being changed by my etuner based on said log files. Rinse, repeat until dialed in.

If you don't offer logging with your hardware, how do you dial in an etune for a customer's specific fuel, altitude, mods, etc?

 

[dragonacc]

There is one company in this thread that has been tuning EcoBoost Mustangs for the last 5 years and is very well known in the Mustang/domestic community versus a company that has been working on EcoBoost vehicles for the last couple of years.

Which do you think id go with?

I think by your post we know who you'd go with...

None of the companies mentioned in this thread are bad. I'd be willing to bet all of their tunes are safe too. It's all a matter of preference. Spend your money where you want.

 

[COBB Tuning]

Just wanted to clear something up about datalogging in this thread. When an ECU is reverse engineered, we find the factory ECU tuning tables and then get on the dyno to see how they all interact with each other. To watch this interaction, we find the monitors the ECU is using for all of its complex calculations and models. You can see an example of these EcoBoost monitors here and this same document will be updated soon with the Mustang additions: Ford EcoBoost Monitor List and Descriptions. This is the information the datalog displays for live data or data logging. If the ECU sees it, we can record it. If the ECU sees it, that means they are the actual numbers the ECU is using to execute its calculations that run the engine. As you can see from the list, the ECU knows what boost pressure the car is seeing, the AF ratio, individual cylinder timing, individual cylinder timing corrections (related to knock), and much, much more.

Just like we saw on the Focus and Fiesta, I bet people will be posting their datalogs for others to see soon.

Ian

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

I don't necessarily believe in person is better than mail order (hence my comment about a pro etune). And, of course, you need to do your due diligence on your local tuner.

In fact, on my 135i I had a 'mail order' etune. But this was created by logging and tune map parameters being changed by my etuner based on said log files. Rinse, repeat until dialed in.

If you don't offer logging with your hardware, how do you dial in an etune for a customer's specific fuel, altitude, mods, etc?

Easy, by designing and testing here at our facility.

Simply put, if you know what you are doing, and I mean actually know what you are doing on a cal, you build these variables into it so that the car will run properly under any temp, altitude, humidity, BARO, etc.

Trust me, we know this goes against what people have been taught as proper, but go look at the other EcoBoost vehicles we do, our custom tunes we send out mop the floor with everyone else's "logged and customized" tunes.

To us, requiring customer datalogs to get the car right means thorough testing wasn't done before it shipped out, and just confirms that the tuner did not have a real comprehension on what they were doing. What's even worse is that many times tuners that do logged base tuning decide to test out things on peoples cars, and then make them do all the work for them. That's not how we operate, which is why we use our own cars for development. When we release a revision, it's from our own vehicle, not using a customer as a test subject.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Just wanted to clear something up about datalogging in this thread. When an ECU is reverse engineered, we find the factory ECU tuning tables and then get on the dyno to see how they all interact with each other. To watch this interaction, we find the monitors the ECU is using for all of its complex calculations and models. You can see an example of these EcoBoost monitors here and this same document will be updated soon with the Mustang additions: Ford EcoBoost Monitor List and Descriptions. This is the information the datalog displays for live data or data logging. If the ECU sees it, we can record it. If the ECU sees it, that means they are the actual numbers the ECU is using to execute its calculations that run the engine. As you can see from the list, the ECU knows what boost pressure the car is seeing, the AF ratio, individual cylinder timing, individual cylinder timing corrections (related to knock), and much, much more.

Just like we saw on the Focus and Fiesta, I bet people will be posting their datalogs for others to see soon.

Ian

Interestingly enough, what you posted just showed the validity to something I had mentioned. just look at the list and how many items are converted... If the ECM talked in Boost and A/F there would be no need to convert it.

Don't take this as anything other than educating the consumer. We have great respect for what you guys do, just differ on how we do things.

 

[COBB Tuning]

Most items on that list are Direct Memory Reads (DMR). That means the ECU is talking boost. Just educating the consumer

Ian

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

JJ, I must thank you guys for doing your research on a manual trans car. Not discounting the others, but I'm curious of drivetrain limitations as well.

 

[EcoSwag1990]

Most items on that list are Direct Memory Reads (DRM). That means the ECU is talking boost. Just educating the consumer

Ian

opcorn:

 

[foghat]

Easy, by designing and testing here at our facility.

Simply put, if you know what you are doing, and I mean actually know what you are doing on a cal, you build these variables into it so that the car will run properly under any temp, altitude, humidity, BARO, etc.

Trust me, we know this goes against what people have been taught as proper, but go look at the other EcoBoost vehicles we do, our custom tunes we send out mop the floor with everyone else's "logged and customized" tunes.

To us, requiring customer datalogs to get the car right means thorough testing wasn't done before it shipped out, and just confirms that the tuner did not have a real comprehension on what they were doing. What's even worse is that many times tuners that do logged base tuning decide to test out things on peoples cars, and then make them do all the work for them. That's not how we operate, which is why we use our own cars for development. When we release a revision, it's from our own vehicle, not using a customer as a test subject.

So how is this possible? Is the ecoboost ecu compensating for different factors automatically? Why do you even bother with different octane tunes or offer custom tunes at all if you can do it all in a single tune?

The fact that you do offer different octane tunes and different tunes for different mods has to mean there is value in data logging, no?

What if I use 93 but it is not the same quality (better or worse) as the 93 you used for you tune - surely something is left on the table (if my fuel is better) or that needs to be taken away (if your fuel was better).

Of what if the dp I am using flows differently than whatever dp you used for you dp tune.

you are right, this does fly in the face of everything I've heard/understand (and admitting my understanding of tuning is limited). Is this train of thought specific to ecoboot engines - or is this your general philosophy?

 

[EcoSnake]

Easy, by designing and testing here at our facility.

Simply put, if you know what you are doing, and I mean actually know what you are doing on a cal, you build these variables into it so that the car will run properly under any temp, altitude, humidity, BARO, etc.

Trust me, we know this goes against what people have been taught as proper, but go look at the other EcoBoost vehicles we do, our custom tunes we send out mop the floor with everyone else's "logged and customized" tunes.

To us, requiring customer datalogs to get the car right means thorough testing wasn't done before it shipped out, and just confirms that the tuner did not have a real comprehension on what they were doing. What's even worse is that many times tuners that do logged base tuning decide to test out things on peoples cars, and then make them do all the work for them. That's not how we operate, which is why we use our own cars for development. When we release a revision, it's from our own vehicle, not using a customer as a test subject.

Lol @ this.

 

[foghat]

Lol @ this.

I agree something does not sound right. I wonder if the position would be the same if their hardware data logged. Maybe.

I am interested in hearing/learning more about this position and how it can be possible.

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