Tuning Decisions

[RamJam]

As for not being impressed, not sure how having the only tune only 12-second, and only 11 second EcoBoost mustang out there isn't impressive.

It is so early that this is really not much of an accomplishment. Furthermore anyone can put slicks on a car, tune the car aggressively, do a risky glory run and drop some time off of a quarter mile.

Basically everything I have heard so far is that you make the "best" tunes, yet you have removed logging from your device ON PURPOSE, so that nobody will know if the car is knocking or if they are running on the ragged edge of their injectors ect.

I find that more than a little suspicious. Maybe the damage done doesn't show itself until most people have traded up or sold their cars.

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[Livernois Motorsports]

Im not arguing your results. Just the comments on how less is more. I'm really only interested in e85 anyway. If you get that figured out. I'll buy it.

You will be the first to know if we support it on this. Our hope is that they buck the trend on the fuel system limitations that have made any amount beyond E10 a huge safety concern. E85 is finally getting to the point where we are comfortable testing it since regulations on it's quality have improved. Consumer safety has always been our #1 concern, which is why we are selective on what we support.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

It is so early that this is really not much of an accomplishment. Furthermore anyone can put slicks on a car, tune the car aggressively, do a risky glory run and drop some time off of a quarter mile.

Basically everything I have heard so far is that you make the "best" tunes, yet you have removed logging from your device ON PURPOSE, so that nobody will know if the car is knocking or if they are running on the ragged edge of their injectors ect.

I find that more than a little suspicious. Maybe the damage done doesn't show itself until most people have traded up or sold their cars.

There is nothing stopping them from logging it with something else, we just don't support it because we don't need it. It's not like we turn off anything in the ECM's diagnostics, anyone is free to log what we do, we just want people to know that many times dataloggers aren't looking at real values, so they often cannot be trusted to use, and why we don't make tune adjustments based on logs.

And as far as the comment on the damage not showing up, we custom tune more EcoBoost vehicles than anyone. We even have customers that have put over 100k miles on our tunes and products. If we were doing anything on the edge, the entire world would know it. The EcoBoost communities are very vocal on issues, perceived and real.

Edit: on the comment on not being impressive for the runs we are looking at nearly a month ago on some of our runs, yet no one in that month has even come close, even though we were one of the last places to get their car for development. If it were so easy to do the things you list, why hasn't anyone else done it yet?

 

[foghat]

Oddly enough though we have been proving our methodology works since 2009.

let me give you a rundown of what we have done in the EcoBoost world:

First and only 12-second Explorer Sport
Qucikest tune only Ford Flex
First and only 11-second Taurus SHO
Highest power EcoBoost 3.5
First to tune fusion 2.0, 1.5, and 1.6
First to tune escape 2.0, and 1.6
First full weight 2015 Mustang EB in the 12's
First 2015 EB Mustang in the 11's
Quickest EcoBoost powered vehicle in the world
Quickest tune only Taurus SHO
Quickest tune only F150 EB

we have more, but I think this list should suffice. All of this done with the device we sell today.

Features don't guarantee results. The calibration does.

The accomplishments are great and I have no doubt you can tune a car.

But I'd bet dollars to donuts all/most of the vehicles you list above had a tune built by you specific to that car. Did these end up being the ots maps you provided with your hardware?

Are you saying that if I have a car with your X, Y, and Z hardware, running gas A and I load your map that meets the hardware/fuel requirements that if:

A: I brought my car to your shop and you put in on the dyno and measure what it is you measure

or

B: You come to me way over here in calgary and we put it on dyno and you measure whatever it is you measure

that in both these cases, you would not see anything in the numbers that would justify tweaking the tune?

Now what if I am not using your hardware?

I get you like to offer the full-meal deal to your customers.

But what if your particular piece of hardware is shown to be inferior to someone elses, or if, while superior, is at a price point that causes me to go with someone else? Or what if you just don't make a particular piece I add at some future point?

You are basically saying your tunes are not for me (unless I live next door), as there is no way anyone other than you can compensate for those differences? Or are your ots tunes unlocked and software available to others so they could increment off of the ots tune I bought from you? Or even start from scratch without me having to buy another piece of hardware.

We respect that some people want them, but rather than giving them something that spits on incorrect data (again, items like A/F and Boost PSI are NOT in the ECM, they are values someone is calculating other items to get) we do our best to educate our customers as to what is being sold to them.

If this is the case, there there is obviously some formula you are using that can be applied to give you actual boost/afr numbers based on whatever the ecm is spitting out.

Why couldn't this be applied to the numbers from a datalog? Again, yes, you need to make sure you have a guy (your guys even) who understands this, but it is hardly a justification for not using datalogs. Thanks for trying to protect me from myself, but...

Which is why we set our tunes up to be safe, AND faster than everyone else's tunes. We have plenty of customers in AZ and New Mexico that run 91 (or 90) and our tunes are spot on for them as well. We do extensive testing on everything we do, including temp, and fuel testing. Remember where we are located, the heart of automotive testing and development. We even have facilities that have regional fuels specifically for testing.

Right here. Full stop.

You are leaving something on the table so you can accommodate the wide ranging quality of a given octane (and whatever else). This is precisely why custom tunes can be superior to off the shelf tunes. If I have fuel that is better than average, then there is room for a custom tune to improve upon your tune and squeak out a bit more.

Not to mention custom tunes are not all about getting the highest numbers. I had a bit of boost oscillation with the ots tune I was using (I seemed to be one of the few), a custom tune was able to get rid of it. I'm sure you'll argue your ots map wouldn't have had that issue. I'd counter that there is no way an ots map can work perfectly for all the different fuel and hardware combinations (let alone driving conditions) - I think you've pretty much said this your self in that your tunes are really designed to work with your hardware.

I also got a few different throttle mappings. Or if you decide you'd like to play it a little more safe, or push things a bit more, you can do it.

Again, you obviously do great work, but this aversion to custom tuning really feels a little self serving - which is understandable, you run a business.

 

[RamJam]

Fair enough, sorry for getting so caught up in it. Just gives me bad memories of a previous tuning device. Admittedly I have not used your device or tunes. I'll just have to hold off until I can see more data out of all of these options.

 

[EcoSnake]

You will be the first to know if we support it on this. Our hope is that they buck the trend on the fuel system limitations that have made any amount beyond E10 a huge safety concern. E85 is finally getting to the point where we are comfortable testing it since regulations on it's quality have improved. Consumer safety has always been our #1 concern, which is why we are selective on what we support.

On the frs/brz the ford f150s flex fuel system was adapted to the ecu.

 

[dirty-max]

Just to throw this out there I was test driving an ecoboost the other day and ford had implemented an A/F guage into the dash that I could cycle through..idk where it gets its info from same with the boost guage..i would think the ecoboost has some sort of MAP sensor that would accurately tell what boost pressures you are seeing

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

On the frs/brz the ford f150s flex fuel system was adapted to the ecu.

...but they have injectors and pump enough to support it. I don't think the fuel systems on any of the EB stuff is capable of the increased demand.

 

[cosmo]

On the frs/brz the ford f150s flex fuel system was adapted to the ecu.

Are they direct injected? It's much easier to do E85 with PFI, but with DI it's another story.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

There are a lot of great questions in here, I will respond below.

The accomplishments are great and I have no doubt you can tune a car.

But I'd bet dollars to donuts all/most of the vehicles you list above had a tune built by you specific to that car. Did these end up being the ots maps you provided with your hardware?

Actually, more than half of the records listed are cars that were just sent tunes, the other ones were more serious builds that we used to develop a tune for those modifications in house.

Are you saying that if I have a car with your X, Y, and Z hardware, running gas A and I load your map that meets the hardware/fuel requirements that if:

A: I brought my car to your shop and you put in on the dyno and measure what it is you measure

or

B: You come to me way over here in calgary and we put it on dyno and you measure whatever it is you measure

that in both these cases, you would not see anything in the numbers that would justify tweaking the tune?

Indeed, as we have done this, and even have people drive cross country to see it in person, and it was always what we set the car up to do

Now what if I am not using your hardware?

I get you like to offer the full-meal deal to your customers.

But what if your particular piece of hardware is shown to be inferior to someone elses, or if, while superior, is at a price point that causes me to go with someone else? Or what if you just don't make a particular piece I add at some future point?

Typically speaking, we ensure our products are better, or at least on par with other top performers. We also try to be flexible enough that we do test other upgrades we deem worthwhile that we do not make, and develop calibrations for that. And honestly, a lot of the parts out there for the EcoBoost engines don't require any tuning adjustments.

You are basically saying your tunes are not for me (unless I live next door), as there is no way anyone other than you can compensate for those differences? Or are your ots tunes unlocked and software available to others so they could increment off of the ots tune I bought from you? Or even start from scratch without me having to buy another piece of hardware.

Our tuning software is proprietary to us, no one else has or uses what we use to tune these, so it's not open ended, it is specific to us.

If this is the case, there there is obviously some formula you are using that can be applied to give you actual boost/afr numbers based on whatever the ecm is spitting out.

Actually, we don't convert it, everything we do is in the OEM language. Learning a language requires being submersed in it to fully understand it. Sort of the difference of going to france and knowing conversational french vs. going there with your english to french dictionary in hand. It makes for a great comedic scene in a movie, but spells disaster if you are trying to tune a car like this.

Why couldn't this be applied to the numbers from a datalog? Again, yes, you need to make sure you have a guy (your guys even) who understands this, but it is hardly a justification for not using datalogs. Thanks for trying to protect me from myself, but...

This isn't to protect people from themselves, it's to protect people from tuners who claim to know what they are doing, and don't.

Right here. Full stop.

You are leaving something on the table so you can accommodate the wide ranging quality of a given octane (and whatever else). This is precisely why custom tunes can be superior to off the shelf tunes. If I have fuel that is better than average, then there is room for a custom tune to improve upon your tune and squeak out a bit more.

You are taking what was said and making it the extreme case. There is a difference between leaving a safety factor, and leaving 20hp on the table. We know that chasing 1-3 hp isn't going to ever benefit someone long term, nor will you ever see it on anything but a dyno, so why remove all safety just to get there? The car will self detect if the fuel is a little better, or a little worse and make some adjustments up and down, but if you have it so close to the limit, that all it does is adjust down all the time, what's the point?

Not to mention custom tunes are not all about getting the highest numbers. I had a bit of boost oscillation with the ots tune I was using (I seemed to be one of the few), a custom tune was able to get rid of it. I'm sure you'll argue your ots map wouldn't have had that issue. I'd counter that there is no way an ots map can work perfectly for all the different fuel and hardware combinations - I think you've pretty much said this your self in that your tunes are really designed to work with your hardware.

This is where we differ with many companies. Instead of saying "no it can't" we tell people that we are human, go to our own car, put your tune in it, and recreate it for you. That way instead of us asking you to risk anything, we do the work you paid us to do, make your car right.

I also got a few different throttle mappings. Or if you decide you'd like to play it a little more safe, or push things a bit more, you can do it.

That's fine as well, if someone wants custom tweaks, we do them at no charge. Now, if they want something unsafe, we put our foot down and have the conversation why we don't do something so they know why we made that choice.

Again, you obviously do great work, but this aversion to custom tuning really feels a little self serving - which is understandable, you run a business.

We run a business that does custom tuning day in, and day out. If we thought there was a benefit to custom tuning every EcoBoost that comes in was necessary, we would. Now, we test them all before and after to ensure they do what they are supposed to do, but this is more so the consumer has a dyno sheet showing them the results. It also helps us freshly validate that our tune always acts the way we intend it to act.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

On the frs/brz the ford f150s flex fuel system was adapted to the ecu.

F150 5.0. The EcoBoost F150 is not flex fuel.

Just to throw this out there I was test driving an ecoboost the other day and ford had implemented an A/F guage into the dash that I could cycle through..idk where it gets its info from same with the boost guage..i would think the ecoboost has some sort of MAP sensor that would accurately tell what boost pressures you are seeing

You are correct, it does, but per Ford, these are normalized values, not actual values. We had a lengthy conversation with them when the 13 mustang introduces these gauges.

...but they have injectors and pump enough to support it. I don't think the fuel systems on any of the EB stuff is capable of the increased demand.

Correct, the 5.0 F150 has a fuel system designed for it, but for the EB not even the small engine applications have had enough head room to do this.

Are they direct injected? It's much easier to do E85 with PFI, but with DI it's another story.

The Flex fuel F150's are not direct injection. They are PFI, so no EcoBoost, only the 5.0 (and maybe the 3.7)

 

[foghat]

There are a lot of great questions in here, I will respond below.

Thanks for all the great answers. I appreciate it.

Still having a hard time believing that you could not improve upon numbers/driveablity with a custom tune. I kind of get it in the situation where the customer comes to you and is using all your parts - as that is where the tune was developed.

But in cases where the car is living at a altitude significantly different than yours and/or parts that you have not specifically tested, having a harder time with that.

I'll get over it some day.

Thanks again.

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

Never once heard someone say that extra information and options are only needed by idiots.

I'm not sure that he called anyone an 'idiot'. I think he's simply stated that some features are not needed.

Instead you just don't have them, and tell the customer that they don't want them.

Again, 'need' them.

I find the professionalism being offered by Livernois refreshing. I'm not sure who exactly there is posting, but he's submitted many posts explaining what/how they do things and why, has been patient w/ the skeptics, performed real world drag strip testing for evidence and our enjoyment, and provided a thorough resume of the success they've had on other Ecoboost platforms.

Just for comparison's sake. It's obvious that I'm the skeptic of Cobb. The responses I've received?
-"Some poopy forum guys don't trust us for whatever reason. If a letter from the OEM isn't good enough, oh well, can't convince everyone." I make sure airplanes don't fall out of the sky for a living. I like to think I know a thing or two about critical thinking.
-I've also asked a number of times for when they plan to race the car. They're in Austin, so weather isn't an excuse. He seems to have stopped responding to my questions. If purchasing an AP from them, can a person expect this kind of response, or more appropriately, lack thereof, when customers start asking 'hard' questions after the sale?


Expanding on foghat's question... I like to prep most of my own heads. If I pull the head, port/blend it, do a valve job, what kind of support can you provide in instances like these? Would a tune have to be extrapolated from flow numbers?

 

[foghat]

I'm not sure that he called anyone an 'idiot'. I think he's simply stated that some features are not needed.

Again, 'need' them.

I find the professionalism being offered by Livernois refreshing. I'm not sure who exactly there is posting, but he's submitted many posts explaining what/how they do things and why, has been patient w/ the skeptics, performed real world drag strip testing for evidence and our enjoyment, and provided a thorough resume of the success they've had on other Ecoboost platforms.

Just for comparison's sake. It's obvious that I'm the skeptic of Cobb. The responses I've received?
-"Some poopy forum guys don't trust us for whatever reason. If a letter from the OEM isn't good enough, oh well, can't convince everyone." I make sure airplanes don't fall out of the sky. I like to think I know a thing or two about critical thinking.
-I've also asked a number of times for when they plan to race the car. They're in Austin, so weather isn't an excuse. He seems to have stopped responding to my questions. If purchasing an AP from them, can a person expect this kind of response when customers start asking 'hard' questions after the sale?


Expanding on foghat's question... I like to prep most of my own heads. If I pull the head, port/blend it, do a valve job, what kind of support can you provide in instances like these? Would a tune have to be extrapolated from flow numbers?

I really not a cobb fanboy, I swear...

But, in fairness, you were asking about a part they made for a non-ford engine in an ecoboost thread. And if I remember correctly, you started the whole 'conversation' accusing them of basically being idiots for building the part the way they did. Of course I could be remembering wrong about the actual contents of the discussion, but I know the tone wasn't one that would make me want to engage with you.

I've said it before, the accessport is a great piece of hardware. Even if you don't see the value in some of its features (map switching, no lift shift, etc) , the gauges, real time parameter monitoring, code reading and clearing, make it a compelling choice.

Livernois you should purchase the software and start selling ecoboost tunes for access port. I mean, reality is, people are going to be buying access ports (a lot of them, if other platforms are any indication) and are going to want a custom tune. Apply your knowledge and take a piece of the market that doesn't buy your tuner.

 

[foghat]

And @Livernois, are you doing anything in the way of s550 GT tunes?

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